Keith Willis: Turn Career Setbacks Into Launchpads (+ The Long Game Strategy That Gets You More)

What if the very career setback that feels like your biggest failure is actually the launching pad for your greatest success? Keith Willis, Executive Coach and Leadership Development Expert, reveals how embracing feedback, swallowing your pride, and viewing "failures" as feedback can transform your career trajectory in ways you never imagined.

Guest Bio

Keith Willis, President of Core Management Training, is a seasoned Executive Coach, Leadership Development Expert, and former pharmaceutical industry leader who has spent decades mastering the art of resilience and helping others do the same. After working with companies such as Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson, he launched his own coaching practice, helping managers and teams play "the infinite game" by focusing on long-term people development rather than short-term wins.

Keith specializes in transforming career setbacks into career breakthroughs, teaching professionals how to take feedback, embrace change, and build sustainable success. His philosophy centers on understanding that life's ups and downs are inevitable, but our response to them determines our trajectory.

Connect with Keith:

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithawillis/
• https://coremanagementtraining.com/

Content Sample: 

[00:23:00-00:26:00] Transforming Career Setbacks into Launch Pads The lesson? Sometimes your worst moments become your best credentials.

[00:26:00-00:28:00] The Rollercoaster Reality Check You've already proven your resilience; it's time to trust that pattern.

[00:28:00-00:30:00] Playing the Infinite Game vs. the Finite Game Keeping talent, investing in people's growth, and thinking long-term actually improves the bottom line and creates unstoppable teams.

[00:31:00-00:33:00] Managing for the Long View When you focus on helping people reach their life goals, not just quarterly targets, everyone wins.

[00:33:00] The Ultimate Truth: You Are the Captain Keith's closing wisdom: "I am the captain of my own destiny." You control your response to every situation, and that response shapes your future.

Memorable Quotes

"Sometimes the worst things that happen are the best things that can happen - they become launchpads." 

"Nobody wants to worry about whether they're gonna have a job or not. Companies expect loyalty, but they're playing the finite game." 

"When people know that you care about them, they're gonna give you a lot more and they're gonna be more open with you because it's not just about you, it's about them." 

Call to Action

Ready to transform your career setbacks into breakthroughs? Subscribe to the Career Wanderlust Podcast so you never miss an episode filled with golden nuggets like these.

If you are looking to add talent to your marketing, communications, public relations, public affairs, or sales/bus dev team, contact paradigmstaffing.com.  

Host and Platform Information

Jolie Downs is the co-owner and Executive Recruiter with Paradigm Staffing, a recruiting firm specializing in public relations, marketing, and communications. For more career related insights, connect with Jolie at:  linkedin.com/in/joliedowns

Ending Note

Here's something to sit with: Every single difficulty you've ever faced, you've overcome. Every challenge that once felt impossible is now behind you. So why would this current moment be any different?

Keith reminds us that we are the captains of our own destiny, not because life stops throwing storms our way, but because we choose how to navigate them. 

Transcript

Keith-Willis-

[00:00:00]

Jolie Downs: Welcome to the Career Wanderlust Podcast, your compass for new career horizons. Today we are speaking with Keith Willis. Keith is the founder of Core Management Training, a firm dedicated to improving leadership, team performance and business results.

Intrigued by how high achievers succeed, Keith has spent his career studying, applying, and teaching proven strategies that drive results. He began his leadership journey in the US Army where he built and led high performing teams under pressure, and I can only imagine the pressure. He later transitioned to corporate America bringing a sharp focus on performance improvement across sales, operations, and training functions.

In the pharmaceutical industry, Keith held roles as a top performing sales representative and an award-winning sales manager and an respected training leader at companies such as Johnson and Johnson, Pfizer and Bristol Myers Squibb. Today Keith works with organizations and individual leaders to uncover practical solutions that [00:01:00] elevate performance and build stronger teams.

And I'm really excited to learn more. Keith, thank you for joining us on the Career Wanderlust podcast. 

Keith Willis: Thank you so much, Jolie. I'm really excited to be here and it's an honor to be here with you. 

Jolie Downs: Oh, it's really nice to have you. I'm excited to learn more about your story. I think it's fascinating. I mean, you move from the Army into corporate America, which I would imagine isn't the easiest or it would be

a lot of differences, I would imagine. And then you excelled in corporate America and then you now teach others how to do the same. So I find this fascinating, 

Keith Willis: you know? Is 

Jolie Downs: there, I don't know, is there any advice or a belief or something that's helped carry you through your career that you now share with others?

Keith Willis: I think one of the big things is looking for the tools and resources that are available. When I transitioned out of the military, there were companies like Cameron Brooks that did, a lot of work with junior military officers. Mm-hmm. And so I went through a program. I spent probably 18 [00:02:00] months or so going through a developmental program, helping prepare me for corporate.

Role of where we kind of fit in. So you think in terms of, we always talk about year group. So I graduated, I'm gonna give my age here in 86. And so, um, you know, I always considered year group 86 from an officer standpoint. So my peers had a six year head start and usually there's a gap somewhere where you have an opportunity to join an organization.

So I went through this developmental program. I know now there are far more resources that are available. I'm actually a mentor for American Corporate Partners and what they do is they help service folks, transition from the military into corporate America. So before there weren't a lot of those programs before.

 So I think you have to use resources and all of the things that are available. And I think one of the advantages in 2025 is the availability of tons of resources. There's YouTube, there's video, video. There are podcasts like this. [00:03:00] There are just tons of books that are available that they just weren't available maybe 20, 25 years ago.

Jolie Downs: I'm fascinated. I actually didn't know that there were organizations like that that helped in that transition. And it makes, it opens up my mind to wondering about all kinds of other organizations out there that could exist that I have no idea. I think after this I might go ask AI to gimme, you know, like, here's some situations.

Are there any resources that I'm unaware of? I think that's a really. Brilliant. Actually, 

Keith Willis: you'll probably be quite surprised the, the number of, of resources that people have available at their fingertips. You don't have to, and just think about it. You can use AI now. It's probably a broader search now than just the web, you know, just going online.

Jolie Downs: I, I never thought about it. I mean, it makes me think about back in the day, right when, when I was looking at all the college applications and I can't remember, I can not tell you how many people told me, oh, you have no idea how [00:04:00] many resources are out there that you can get. There's so many scholarships that no one applies to this and that, and I bet that it's a similar situation.

There's all these companies with our resources for all of us, for our different needs that we're just not aware of. So whatever your need might be. Take this advice and go see if there's any resources out there for you. I love this. 

Keith Willis: Absolutely. 

Jolie Downs: So Keith, now what about a story? 'cause I love hearing people's stories and I think you probably have some really interesting ones.

Considering your career trajectory, has there been something really impactful that happened to you or event that happened to you that you ended up learning a great deal from that could benefit other people from listening to it? 

Keith Willis: So, Jolie, you mentioned the transition from military to corporate America.

And I think that in itself was a challenge because you go from, I went from being a, basically was an HR person for all practical purposes, so I had responsibility for administrative functions for the unit. We had about 900 soldiers in our, in our unit and in our [00:05:00] battalion. So there are three companies and I had a staff of about five.

So on a transition from the military, imagine that you go from doing that to corporate America, and I was responsible for myself. I was a sales rep, so, you know, here it's, you know, I gotta learn how to sell. I'm a and of one. And so that was a huge transition. Learning how to sell, learning how to run a territory.

My, my first territory was Albuquerque, New Mexico, so I covered a wide geographical area. Lots of sales representatives with lots of experience and not only am, am I the most junior, I probably knew the least. There were times we're on a six week rotation, so at times I would be away from home for about a week, you know, a week or so, and I was relatively newly married.

So there was, between that and then the military, you, you're on all day, I guess, so to speak. It's not that you don't have downtime, it's just a, a different way of life versus now you're in [00:06:00]corporate America, you work and now you're off of work and you've got things to do. You can find different hobbies and those type of things.

So that transition, was pretty significant because you know, you have a structure within the military. You've got your officers that you report to, and even though there are some similarities between corporate America, there's probably more focused on your confidence and your ability to get the job done.

When you go into corporate America, there are a lot more politics. You're competing with other representatives, not only your sales results, but who's gonna get the most airtime meetings and those type of things. So that was a new world for me and something that I had to figure out, how do I navigate this?

Jolie Downs: How'd you do it? What helped you? 

Keith Willis: Mentors for starters. Mm-hmm. I think that anytime you make huge transitions that you, you have to find mentors and people that are gonna help you. I was fortunate because one of the people that I worked with, we spent a lot of time together. In fact, we kind of split.

Our [00:07:00] territories butted up against each other, and we lived in the same city, so we spent a lot of time together and he helped me out tremendously during my career. Managers, managers, you know that that's the most important relationship that you have in any organization is the relationship that you have with your manager.

And one of the things I had to learn to do is, you know, how do I tap into my manager? Initially. I had a difficult relationship with my manager. Now imagine here I was at the time a top performing representative, but at the time, that relationship wasn't great. And so somebody's recommendation or what they asked, they said, how often do you talk to your manager?

Like as little as possible. Which doesn't help the relationship, huh? Yeah, exactly. So, um, they suggested that I reach out and, and talk to them on a regular basis. So I started reaching out and talking with them probably once every couple of weeks. It made a big difference because when there was an opportunity [00:08:00] for a promotion that I didn't receive, she took the time to call me and said, you know, we have you, for this, this position here, so don't worry about things that I think a lot of that came about because I had developed a relationship with her.

So, here again. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, using mentors, but also working with my manager, building a relationship, and learning how to do that. I have a saying that if two people are in a room and they agree on everything, one of 'em you don't need. So I think it's, I think conflict can be good. You don't need to always, you don't need to agree on everything.

Yeah. But you do have to figure out how do we make this relationship work for both of us. 

Jolie Downs: Absolutely. And this is excellent advice because a lot of people will sit and wait for the manager to come to them. And if there's issues with their manager, they won't address it. They won't ask questions, they'll just kind of wait.

And so taking that proactively. And reaching out to your manager, having those conversations, creating the, being proactive about creating those outreach moments with your [00:09:00] manager is excellent advice because exactly what hap what happened to you is what will happen when you have a strong connection with someone.

You're gonna be the one who's top of mind for promotions, for new projects, for, you know, just new opportunities in general, let alone, having those conversations, little gold nuggets are always gonna fall out of them. And just having some of those general conversations. So this is excellent, excellent advice.

People should reach out to their managers to be proactive about those relationships. You know, a a lot of people want to move themselves into management, right? But they don't have that experience. I'm curious, do you have advice on how to build influence in your career when you're not in charge?

Keith Willis: Yeah, so I, I always think of, I believe it's Charles Green. He has this thing called the trust equation. So it's, competence, relationships and credibility. So those are the three cornerstones, and that's divided by your self-orientation. So [00:10:00] self-orientation, the more you have, the less effective you are or the

more of a negative impact that has on your trust. So you think in terms of, your credibility. So it's, do you do what you say you're gonna do? Can people rely upon you, your competence In any organization you have a competency set. Most people generally do a fairly decent job. And then that last part is, you know, what are your relationships like?

So when I think about influence, if I have those three things and then I'm focused on helping that other person. To be able to achieve the goals, that they want to achieve, then the likelihood I'm gonna have a li high level of trust, that high level of trust is going to lead to a high level of influence.

If you're struggling with influence, you can probably look somewhere. And in those three, those three or four buckets, there's probably a, an opportunity. And I mean, it's human nature. I mean, ultimately there are, sometimes there's some people we just, we're just not gonna have as much influence with. They may not necessarily think we have the competence or the skills that we need to do, what needs to be said.

[00:11:00] Maybe something happened where they question our credibility. So all of those things can be a little dicey at times. But I think you start there when you think about, you know, how do I become more effective as a leader if I haven't been a leader? And then, you know, there's a, I think it's, uh, Becky Halsted, she was a, she was a general, I had an opportunity to see her speak, but she wrote a book.

The first person that you have to lead is you have to lead yourself. And I think that's, that, that's so true. It's, you know, getting out of the bed first thing in the morning without hitting the clock, you know, that's hard. Can be a challenge 

Jolie Downs: for some people. Right.

I think that's, that's, that's brilliant. Yeah. And that, that's where it does start, right? I mean, leading yourself. Is the beginning to being able to lead others. So, 

Keith Willis: absolutely. That's, 

Jolie Downs: yeah, that's perfect. You know, I'm curious, what kind of challenges that you faced in your career? Because I, I would imagine, I mean, you've had a couple of big [00:12:00] transitions,

I would imagine there's challenges in the army there. I know there's challenges in corporate America. I would imagine there's challenges going from one to the other and then also from corporate America to entrepreneurship. So I'm curious. Yes. 

Keith Willis: Yes, absolutely. If you, if you have, you 

Jolie Downs: know, one or two challenges that you're willing to share with us of how you faced it, how you overcame it, what did you learn?

Keith Willis: Yeah. I'll, I'll start. I'll, the last one is, is interesting going from, from corporate America to entrepreneurship is, is quite a journey I like to say. You really get introduced to yourself. True story, you know? Um, and it, and it's not that you don't know these things, I know that, uh, you know, ultimately it's when there's a problem or a challenge,

ultimately I'm, I'm the issue. I mean, that's the thing is you gotta look in the mirror and you realize, I'm, it whatever's not going well in the business is because of me. 

Jolie Downs: The mountain 

Keith Willis: is you. Yes. [00:13:00] So, so it's coming to grips with that, um, the emotional rollercoaster. You know, you're, you're not getting a check every day or not forget every day.

I mean, just getting a paycheck. You know, even, even when you have clients, you know, you worry about things like cash flow. There's a, you try to be the, the chief bottle washer and you try to do all of these things and some of the stuff you just don't know how to do, you know? Yeah. I never did marketing before.

I mean, I did sales and I'd have worked with marketing before, but, internet marketing, online marketing, how do you get your face out there? Blog posts. I mean, it's exciting because you get to do a lot of stuff and you get to learn, learn a lot of stuff. But it is a challenge because a part of it is to learn how to maintain your

trust in yourself, uh, your emotional bandwidth. I like to say, you know, when I'm coaching managers that there's leakage, when you, when [00:14:00] you don't believe in people. And it's the same thing if you don't believe in yourself as an entrepreneur or people pick up on that when you're having conversations with them, whether you're in a sales environment, whether you're doing business development or, or any of those things.

So, it's a constant journey and battle. I will say I've learned more in the last seven or eight years than probably the previous 20, and I don't mean that in a, in a negative way because I learned a tremendous amount in corporate America as well as the military. But it is a constant, there's always something else that you're learning.

You know, there's a lot of aha moments and I think as you, as I've gotten older, I've gotten a little smarter or more self aware of, oh, that's an opportunity there, you know? Or somebody said, Hey, you did that really well. And it's like, yeah, I've been working on that. Thank you.

Jolie Downs: It took me some time. I appreciate you noticing what has worked really well for you. I mean, whether it be a tool or a belief or a system or [00:15:00] what have you. 'cause entrepreneurs listening right now are relating in a very big way. Is there something that you've found very helpful? 

Keith Willis: So trial and error is one, right?

I had joked with somebody I said that, the biggest thing about when you go out on your own, you have to learn to beat the corporate outta you because you're waiting for somebody to come up with a process system or whatever, and it's, you have to come up with a process processor system. And then there's always a decision about what do I spend money on?

Who do I pay to do what? I picked up this book earlier this year, and it'll be a game changer. 'cause I'm still working through it. It's called Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martel. And what he says is that you don't, you don't hire people to grow your business. You hire people to buy back your time.

And so conceptually it's. You know, it took, it takes a little bit to kind of wrap your head around it. It's funny 'cause my, my wife was out of town for a couple of days and she came [00:16:00] home and she said, you know, did you have, 'cause I had somebody come in and clean the house. And I told her, I said, no, not this time.

I said, because I had to get my car inspected and I was trying to get the house cleaned before she showed up. Yeah. And so, um, and so she said, it looks almost as good as what the, the person. And I said, not really, but in the back of my mind, what I was thinking, yeah, it took me over the course of two days, she does it in three hours and, and you know, and that three hours, the amount of work that I get done is phenomenal.

And so it's kind of that mindset. And, and the same thing with hiring a va. I mean, I've. I still haven't gotten that piece right yet of figuring out how to work with the va. But he's got a whole playbook and, and part of it is, is if you check an email, you're doing something wrong because that's not what you're paid to do.

And I think the bigger lesson is around. When we go in business for ourselves, there are a few things that we do extremely well, and it's why we went into business, and so [00:17:00] you have all of this stuff that you're trying to do and it's important to learn or have a, a understanding of how to do it, but some of the stuff you're just not gonna be an expert in.

And if you can figure out how to offload some of that stuff, if you can offload that stuff and help you focus more. Then it'll allow you to spend time where you're great. And so his recommendation is to start with a virtual assistant, because that will offboard a lot of time and a lot of things that you have to do.

So I'm better now than I was, six months ago, but, still a work in progress and we may move to another VA until I figure out how to get it structured in a way that it, it serves me for what I want to do. 

Jolie Downs: Well, but isn't that what we're looking for, right. To be better than we were six months ago?

Yes. In any situation, just to continuously get a little better. A little better. So congratulations to you

and yes, the va, I mean, the VA services are phenomenal. It is a game changer. [00:18:00] I actually, I was using a VA for a while and I had, I had to make an adjustment and I miss it greatly. I've actually been looking to bring on another, a VA again because it is, it is. Incredibly helpful in so many ways. So, 

Keith Willis: yeah.

Well, I gotta get the, once I figure out how to get the playbook, then it'll be a lot easier, because then if you move from one VA to the next va, they have a playbook and then you don't have to spend as much time doing the training Exactly. 

Jolie Downs: Yeah, no, and some of these have really interesting playbooks, so, you know, asking the right questions of the VA before you hire them is also pretty key.

Keith Willis: Yeah. 

Jolie Downs: I, I'm curious, you know, have you been using AI for any of these functions in your business? Is there, has there been any new tool that you've used AI Wise, has really helped you? 

Keith Willis: Uh, I don't know if it's new tool. Um, I've been planning with chat GBTA lot. I just signed up for a course. Um, I think through LinkedIn learning around prompts, I wanna see some other stuff because I do use it a lot in my [00:19:00] business as far as, uh.

You know, you're trying to build something, trying to build a workshop or you're trying to, you know, you have, uh, data information that you need to sort through. You need to do a sum, a summary. I use it on a regular basis, but I feel like there's probably some more sophistication. Um, I know there are a lot of tools and resources that

are available, for example, email you can use, ai. There are, you know, a lot of programs out there that you can hook up to your email to make you help you be able to categorize your email and those type of things easier. So I'm doing a little bit more research around that and just figuring out how can I use it in a more sophisticated way.

I feel fortunate because in some organizations in corporate America, they're not using AI at all, and I wonder how they're gonna keep up. Because the consultants and people that they're working with are using AI on a regular basis. 

Jolie Downs: Absolutely. 

Keith Willis: Yeah. I'd be interested to, to hear if you, you've got any tools.

Jolie Downs: Oh yeah, I've been, I, I've been using ai. I, it's amazing. And what amazes me is how [00:20:00] quickly everything advances too. And so, I love talking to people to get an idea of what they're doing or how they're using it. For me, I've just been diving into the projects. I've been really enjoying the projects and, and getting to, to use them in that way.

I have been using them. For work solely. What I've been interested in is hearing how some of my, like some of the people I work with and whatnot, they've been using it for their family and whatnot. So they'll create PR projects. Okay. Or like family members or, you know, or like family projects or what have you.

And I, I was fascinated with that because I hadn't even thought about using it, like with your interpersonal relationships and whatnot. So, so that was new. I haven't tried it yet, but I was intrigued with, with that idea. But I really do love the projects and kind of just loading in all the information you can about a certain topic or a certain client, and then just using that project to answer questions or even like asking, asking, you know, what am I missing?

Is there anything that I should be aware of? You know? Yeah. 

Keith Willis: So, yeah, a lot [00:21:00] of 

Jolie Downs: times. 

Keith Willis: Yeah, I've done that through chat. Yeah. So maybe I should explore projects. 'cause there may be a easier way to scale it, you know, because what happens is you've got stuff all over the place and then you're trying to sort through the content and information.

I'm building something, for a client right now I'm using chat, BGBT, and then I'm using, you know, some work that I did in the past and trying to match 'em up and look at it back and forth and, and then, you know, figure out how do I put some of this stuff in folders because you, you replicate it and what you're trying to do is exactly just figure out how do I make a process in a system that's faster and easier, that's scalable.

Jolie Downs: Exactly. Well, and it has a different feel to the writing as well, you know, so like, you know, one, I'll use for inspiration, but I'll have all of my own writing is uploaded, so the project holds all of my own writing and everything, and it has, so it knows how my brain's working. And then I'll have like a recruiting project, but it has all of my recruiting stuff.

Right. But, and that's a different way of talking and a different way of writing. So, [00:22:00] so it starts to, you know, learn how, how I am dealing with different things and operating in different ways in my life too. So it's in, it's very interesting. Um, scary and fasting all roll into one, so

I don't know where we're going or what's gonna happen, but Yeah. Yeah. You know, I figure I'll just dance with the unknown at this point in time. Exactly. 

Keith Willis: Yeah. Innovation's good, you know? Yeah. 

Jolie Downs: So, you know, um, something else I was curious about, because I know you do a lot of coaching and, you help a lot of people during difficult times and there is, there's a lot of people dealing with a very difficult job market right now and a lot of people who are feeling like they're in the middle of serious career setbacks.

I'm wondering how you coach people through these types of growth moments. Is there anything that you would share to an audience of people who might be feeling this way? 

Keith Willis: Yeah, I think life is just, there's lots of ups and downs. Some things work, some things don't. , And I guess you can look at career setbacks in [00:23:00] a couple of different ways.

One setback is when you get negative feedback. Something that you struggle with, and usually I'll do is I'll share some of my life experiences. I remember being a new trainer and having to be retrained by one of my peers, and I was upset. I was embarrassed because I had gotten some tough feedback from one of the classes that we had run.

And I went to my mentor who happened to be in hr, and he gave me a pat on the back and a kick in the behind all at the same time. Unbeknownst to me later on I found out that my boss had gone to him also to get some, coaching about how to coach me up. And I rem Yeah, it's. And I remember, later on, we were having, I had gotten an award or something and I remember her saying that it was one of her proudest moments because I'd had a tough situation, had come back from it and she wasn't sure which way things were gonna go.

I told that same story when I was interviewing for a district sales manager position. And, it's the reason I got the [00:24:00] job. And, and interesting enough, I I I thought I screwed up the interview 'cause I was thinking, man, that was a huge colossal failure and I'm, I'm telling this regional director about this huge failure.

But he looked at it as, here's somebody I can hire that will take feedback and will act upon it. And that can swallow their pride though sometimes when we think the worst things have happened. They oftentimes are the best things that can happen and, and can be launchpads and, even with transitions, you know, part of my transition from corporate America happened because my position was eliminated.

And I know a lot of people have gone through that process and, I had always wanted to be an entrepreneur, had dabbled in some entrepreneurial things, and it gives you an opportunity. I like to say God kicked me out of the nest. You know, because you hold onto something and, and when you look back you realize that wasn't for me anyway.

Right. And, and, and my experience has been that most people do all right. You know, they get laid off and things don't look like they're gonna go [00:25:00] well, and they manage to rebound and that's how life is. It's you get knocked down, you get up. You just keep getting up until you hit success. 

Jolie Downs: So true. So, so true, and I, and I a hundred percent believe this as well.

This is what I've experienced over and over again through thousands of recruiting conversations, through all the podcast interviews. Every person I talk to falls down and struggles and goes through difficulties. They come back around and have something very beautiful and wonderful. This is this, this is life, right?

This is, 

Keith Willis: it is, this is what it is. In fact, 

Jolie Downs: I just posted this, this saying on LinkedIn the other day. I'm trying to remember what it, it was something along the lines of, you know, so you're telling me that you think you're gonna fail, even though through every step of the way, through every difficulty you've had, you've come out through it and on top, but 

Keith Willis: this 

Jolie Downs: time you don't believe yourself of something along those lines.

Right? It's like, Ooh, that hits, that hits, right. You know? Because, 

Keith Willis: because it's true. 

Jolie Downs: We all, we have all dealt, every single person [00:26:00] listening has dealt with all kinds of difficulties. And at some point or another, they got through those difficulties and got through the other side. And whatever's happening right now.

That will happen as well. So it's, it's an important thing to remember that we are all on a rollercoaster. 

Keith Willis: What goes down will 

Jolie Downs: come back up. 

Keith Willis: That's right. It really will, live long enough. You know, you can't have joy without having a little pain and happiness without a little sadness. 

Jolie Downs: Exactly, exactly. So, you know, earlier you shared a book that you've read and it's one of my passions is to talk to people about books that had positive impacts on them.

Is there anything else that you've read that has had a positive impact on your life that could benefit others as well? 

Keith Willis: I've been on a Simon Sinek kick lately. Leaders eat last, the Infinite Game. Yeah, it's, it's, it was insightful, you know, when you're doing workshops and coaching, 'cause a lot of managers don't think about the infinite game.

They think about, the here and now and not thinking about developing people long term. [00:27:00]So those books help me from a fundamental shift about thinking about corporate America. How do you help, help teams be, help them with their performance, help them be better. They have some concepts that, you know, when we look at corporate America, the amount of downsizings and, they look at, we talk about engagement scores and why they're so low.

And I think companies, because they're playing a, they're not playing the infinite game. They're not getting what they want. And so I think helping managers and helping organizations make that switch to think differently can be very, very helpful. So, 

Jolie Downs: Tell me what, tell me about the Infinite game. So people don't know what that means.

Like what, what do you mean by the infinite game? 

Keith Willis: Yeah, so the infinite game, so one of the examples he uses is that, there's a company, there was a guy, when he hired somebody. They general, and I'm not suggesting that everybody do this, but they could keep their job for life. Mm-hmm. And so one of the issues is that fundamentally people wake up in the morning and they go to work and they're, they wanna do a good job.

[00:28:00] Nobody wants to worry about whether they're gonna have a job or not. When I lost my position, I had just come back from vacation and I was in the process of interviewing because we had openings on my team. All of a sudden it was, you know, your position's gonna be eliminated. And this was in July.

That, that was gonna be October. This happens all the time, in life sciences and pharma. It's just a matter of time before your number is up. It doesn't have to be performance, it doesn't have to be anything. And so. Companies are expecting loyalty, but they're playing this, we didn't hit our number this quarter, so we're gonna, we're gonna make these operational cuts.

When you play the finite game, you're playing a long game. Maybe we didn't hit our numbers, but we're gonna keep our talent. Yes. What happens is you see organizations constantly, they have this churn, they're reinventing the wheel. If I go back and I look at the last company that I worked at, they still have the same role.

It looks a little different, the configuration in construction, but they still are doing the [00:29:00] same thing. So there ends up being a talent void in essence and then they're not enabling people to be able to grow and do other things within an organization. So people end up being stuck.

Yes. And so they're playing the short term game. 'cause you're just trying to make quarterly numbers on a regular basis. And when a disaster hits. When everybody groups together and, and they feel like the company has, your back, those employees are gonna give more to the organization. You're gonna end up making more revenue.

Your, your p and l is gonna look good. There are a lot of things, there are a lot of benefits when you play the finite game and you know, when you look from a business perspective the last 20, 30 years, you hear the same thing. It's the economy. It's we, we have cycles that are up and, and cycles that are down.

That's just the, the nature of life. And you think about how businesses do business, it's all about the short term. It's not about the long term. It makes it very difficult to be able to plan for the future. 

Jolie Downs: Is there advice you'd [00:30:00] give a manager to help look towards more of that long term? I mean, to help establish that more and I think that's, that's hard to ask.

'cause you know, if a company's not taking that as a value, 

Keith Willis: yeah. Manager 

Jolie Downs: probably can't do as much. But I'm, I don't know. I'm wondering even if, even if your company isn't taking that value as a manager, is there something you can do to kind of bring on that, that belief or mindset or help your team in some way?

Keith Willis: Yeah, I, I think part of it is, is understand your people, understand where they want to go and what they're trying to do. I had a guy on my team, this is ages ago, and this is before I even got into this mindset. We were having a conversation, been a top selling, top sales rep, year in and year out.

And, he'd go on trips every year. He'd do all of this stuff. And so one day I asked him, I said, you know, I know how much you make and I know how much your bonus, is. I said, things don't add up. And so eventually he told me that, you know, he owned, he was a franchise owner. He owned [00:31:00] this franchise.

And so. You know, one of the things he had asked me a while ago, and this is years ago now, he had asked me, you know, when are you gonna write your book? And he said that because. I listen to what you say because it helps me in the business that I run. And, and so the broader picture is that he was running this franchise.

He had some other goals and some other objectives of things that he wanted to do. When I, when I tell other managers that story, they'll say things like, I wouldn't have let him do that. You know, he shouldn't have been doing that. He's, uh, it was very negative. His loyalty should have been to the company.

Well, first of all, the company was probably gonna lay him off at some point. He was, he was a top producing sales representative, so how much more did they need to get out of him? And you know, and so by helping him help himself did two things. He continued to produce at a high level, and he continued to be able to build his business.

And a lot of managers only think about [00:32:00] the here and now. It's today's results. The next quarter results. And there's a longer game and there's a longer opportunity. When people know that you care about them, they're gonna give you a lot more and they're gonna be more open with you because it's not just about you, it's about them.

And so when you take that long view as a manager and you focus on your people and their self-development, you get more out of the equation there. There's nothing that gives me more pleasure. There are people that I, that have worked for me, there are other companies, some of 'em have gone out on their own.

I feel like a there's a little bit of me 'cause the talent was there, you know, I only gave them a little bit, but, but I feel like I'm a little bit of that contribution that I gave a little bit to help them be able to get there. So I, I think that's the best feeling in the world and I think that definitely your years as a manager can be a lot more beneficial and a lot more enjoyable if you take that long view that you're helping people reach their goals in life and, and help them help their, their families.

Jolie Downs: That's so beautiful. I love it so much. And [00:33:00] that's, I mean, that's how we should all be operating in general. Absolutely. And that's how you elevate people. That's how people become better. That's how your company becomes better. That's how your team becomes better. All of it. So I love this. Thank you for sharing that with me. Keith, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming and joining us on Career. One Less, you've been giving so many golden nuggets. Before you go, I wanna ask you one final question. What are you sure of in life? 

Keith Willis: I am the captain of my own destiny. Yes,

I,

Jolie Downs: yes, you're, 

Keith Willis: that's good. 

Jolie Downs: I'm sure of that too.

Thank you so much, Keith. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on Career Wanderlust Podcast. 

Keith Willis: Thank you so much, Jolie. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed chatting with you.