Empathy as a Business Edge: Fred Bateman talks Revolutionary Leadership, Radical Transparency and Navigating the Tech Tides.

Embark on a transformative journey with Fred Bateman, a visionary serial entrepreneur who has mastered the art of technology-focused strategic communications over three decades. In this captivating episode, Fred shares his profound insights and unparalleled experiences, leaving you inspired and empowered to navigate your own path to success.


Guest Bio:
Fred Bateman is the CEO and founder of the fast-growing PR and content marketing company, Bateman Agency. He is renowned for his role as the sole founder and CEO of Bateman Group from 2003 to 2020, one of the most award-winning and fastest-growing tech PR agencies of the past decade. Under his leadership, Bateman Group became an industry innovator and the go-to agency for disruptive startups and market leaders alike.


Content Sample:
1.Discover Fred's unique philosophy on empathy, kindness, and radical transparency, which has become the cornerstone of his company culture and a driving force behind employee satisfaction and retention.

2.Gain invaluable insights into Fred's resilient mindset, as he shares powerful lessons on bouncing back from setbacks, embracing an abundance mentality, and fostering supportive relationships with competitors.

3.Unravel Fred's transformative journey, from a Boston street kid to a trailblazing entrepreneur, showcasing his unwavering determination and his ability to turn challenges into opportunities.

Key Takeaways:
1.[00:01:59] Fred's upbringing and journey from a single-parent household to academic excellence laid the foundation for his empathetic and generous nature, which has served him well in the business world.

2.[00:11:03] Embrace radical transparency, including salary transparency and open communication about profits, to foster trust and engagement within your team.

3.[00:15:41] Recognize when someone is not a long-term fit and make difficult decisions swiftly, while still treating people with kindness and empathy during terminations.

4.[00:22:06] In challenging economic times, focus on retaining and delighting existing clients, as their loyalty and positive word-of-mouth can be invaluable.

5.[00:30:19] Build resilience by recognizing that downturns are temporary, and maintain your team to benefit from the eventual rebound.


Memorable Quotes:
1."I've always tried to make a community, within the Tech PR, whether I was in Boston or San Francisco, or L.A., which I did for a couple of years when I was with Fitzgerald."

2."I feel like this new model of salary transparency, and equal pay for equal work... I'd never go back. I would never go back to hiding the ranges again or negotiating with candidates behind closed doors."


Host and Platform Information:
This insightful session was hosted by Jolie Downs with Paradigm, a voice in career evolution and growth. You can connect with Jolie here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joliedowns/

If you enjoy learning from others, please give us a like, subscribe, and share with a friend. 

If you are looking to add talent to your public relations, marketing, communications, sales, or business development team with the best talent, and quickly, check us out at paradigmstaffing.com.


Ending Note:
As Fred Bateman's journey reminds us, embracing an abundance mindset, leading with empathy, and cultivating a culture of transparency can pave the way for extraordinary success. What resonated most with you from Fred's inspiring story, and how might you apply his insights to your own path? Share your thoughts and suggestions for future discussions with the Career Wanderlust community.

Transcript

Fred Bateman

[00:00:00] Jolie Downs: Welcome to the Career Wanderlust podcast, your compass for new career horizons. Today we are talking with Fred Bateman. Fred is a serial agency entrepreneur who has been refining his craft of technology focused strategic communications 

[00:00:17] for more than 30 years. Currently he is the CEO and founder of fast growing PR and content marketing company, Bateman agency, where his talented team helps tech companies realize their ultimate success. Fred is also best known as the sole founder and CEO from 2003 to 2020 of Bateman group, one of the most award winning, fastest growing tech PR agencies in the last 10 years.

[00:00:43] Under his leadership, Bateman Group became known as the industry innovator and the tech agency of choice for disruptive startups and market leaders alike. Fred is now on his way to doing the same with the Bateman agency, and I am excited to learn more. Fred, thank you so much for joining us on the Career Wanderlust podcast.

[00:01:03] Fred Bateman: Thanks, Jolie. Great to see you. And thanks 

[00:01:05] Jolie Downs: for having me. Oh, it's so great to have you and see your face. It's wonderful. You have a wonderful career in the communications industry, not only working with other leading agencies as you moved your way up through the ranks to the highest levels and then starting your own agency, making that a success, starting another agency, which is, , I hear winning some fast growing awards as well.

[00:01:27] So I would love to know, I mean, through all of your career, what has been some of the key advice that has kept you going and being successful? What's made the most impact for you? 

[00:01:42] Fred Bateman: I've always had a very strong affinity for people that work in this industry. I recall back when I went to Boston college, I grew up in Boston, , very much a Boston street kid, you know, from a single family, single parent home and, , went, you know, through Jesuit Catholic schools were sort of my path out of poverty.

[00:01:59] You know, I went to an all boy Jesuit high school called Boston College High School, which was very academically rigorous. And, and then Boston College, which is certainly, not an easy college to get into either, and all on academic scholarship. So, you know, I was always, as a child of divorce, I think, , there's always one child that like sort of goes overachieving and then like brother is sort of the opposite for, , the rebel.

[00:02:22] So I was very much like the peacekeeper, you know, back I think. It's something that's, that served me well growing up without money and, that has helped me navigate the business world in a way that I think, , certain attributes that I'm known for are still with me today. I've known for being extremely generous, extremely empathetic.

[00:02:45] And that's what I'm most proud of is that I've maintained that reputation through all 35 years that I've been working in this business. Always a fair and friendly competitor, very close with my other agency, , competitor owners. You know, I love to, network with them and talk shop and I celebrate other successes when they, even when they beat us a new business.

[00:03:07] And, , I've always tried to make a community, , within the Tech PR, whether I was in Boston or San Francisco, , or L. A., which I did for a couple of years when I was with Fitzgerald. And I think that, having the sort of goodwill of the marketplace behind me at many different points in my career really creates, created a gust of wind and in my sales, , at both Bateman Group and now at Bateman Agency of people who want to see me.

[00:03:31] Fred Bateman succeed, which is nice, right? Yeah. I've tried not to burn many bridges, over the years. I've realized that's not possible that, , there's going to always be a few , that do get burned. But, and I've run into, I'll be honest, a lot of, , homophobia. You know, and I still didn't recognize it for a long time.

[00:03:50] I thought it was just my personality or sad, you know, or bad advice. I give it, , but I know it's still a very much a problem that as I've gotten older, I've been more vocal about, we're talking with PR trades or whoever, , industry, , organizations, , it's just under the surface, , But, , I, I definitely have faced a lot of that, where And how do you deal 

[00:04:12] Jolie Downs: with that when you are faced 

[00:04:13] Fred Bateman: with it?

[00:04:14] Well, there's a couple ways it manifests. , sometimes I think being just known as , a gay, gay owned agency, , or an agency led by an openly gay man. Especially as I've gotten to middle age, and I'm single still, and I don't have kids with the surrogate.

[00:04:27] Like, you know, the good, the, Good guys who follow, which is ridiculous. But you know, those who I knew of course fought hard for those rights too. And I just haven't, the cards haven't been dealt to me that way. I was always too focused on work and building, building companies to really. That's just, this is silly.

[00:04:45] Jolie Downs: It goes along with the whole, like, you're not. Worthy unless you have children or what have you. I just think that's silly. I just wanna say that . Yeah. 

[00:04:52] Fred Bateman: Yeah, yeah. But, but I think it, it it, I went from like, Rupert ever gay best friend meme to like, kind of like creepy and predatory.

[00:05:01] Oh no. Like, why isn't, you know, it was one person not enough for him. You know, I, I, there was a, there's a lot of people that just kind of fill in the blanks when they don't know what's going on with your personal life that shouldn't have anything to do with how you perform in business. , if anything, I thought.

[00:05:16] You know, like, that's reserved for single women who are middle aged, not single gay men. Yeah,

[00:05:21] Jolie Downs: people forget that there's a lot of ways to live life. And you know what, there are thousands and thousands of ways to live your very best life. So, anyway. And to 

[00:05:30] Fred Bateman: be happy, you know, without having children necessarily.

[00:05:33] Or even being in a relationship. Exactly. And that was definitely something that I, still feel like I face a lot is that other heterosexuals in the business and, , assume that if you don't follow their path to marriage and kids that, , something must go wrong with you, , or you eventually will have a mental breakdown of some kind, but, but in terms of business, I'll rein it in back, back to like, you know, building an agency and , how it can be an obstacle.

[00:05:56] , when you're gay, there's times where we have a CMO who really wants to hire us, knows we've got the most domain experience in their sector, really loves the team, likes, , me too, and respects my advice, which isn't always a given. , but then he's concerned about how I'll mesh with the CEO who might, you know, be.

[00:06:14] Not, not openly homophobic, but, you know, sort of avoid being around gay men or just not wanting to take advice or counsel from a gay man. It's different when you have gay people on your staff and they report to you, but if, they're looking at me as a peer, It can cut, it can get in the way, you know what I mean?

[00:06:32] And, I think that the, what I used to do was fade into the background and push my heterosexual co workers , and peers that helped me building the agency to the front. And I realized that approach doesn't work well in the longterm either. issues of credit and like who really was the one to bring in , that business and, , realizing that I didn't fade to the background because of my performance, because of my sexuality.

[00:06:56] As I look back over my career, I realized that, , when I was working for other people's agencies, it was never an issue and I never felt restrained by it. But with my own companies, I have, it's been something that, , bigger obstacle than I was willing to admit until very, 

[00:07:10] Jolie Downs: do you now just decide not to work with those types of companies 

[00:07:13] Fred Bateman: well, sometimes, you don't know until you've actually won the client and run boarded, or you've gotten past those obstacles that prevented we're preventing us from getting hired, like, you know, I can sense. When, if, if A CEO or a CMA just doesn't like me for no reason, like a lot of times I do give them a reason, , or tell them things they don't wanna hear, you know, which is part of the job, , part of the job

[00:07:35] But if they're hostile to me for no reason, I, sense that there's an issue and I will, rearrange the team so that there's somebody that they're more comfortable with. , as the, as senior lead, I've got a great deep bench with , Rachel Cassidy and , Tara Klein, two people that I've worked with both at Bateman group and for many, many years, Tara and I back to 1993 in Boston, , and there's others on my senior team that, are some, sometimes a better fit, for a CMO or CEO, but, but this with the second agency, I've been thrilled that there's been some CEOs that have not.

[00:08:05] , I don't care at all about me being very involved in the accounts. In fact, they really respect my deep tech knowledge. , my passion for technology, which I think is another thing that's really driven me all these years to get back to the original question is, I always dreamed of having my own agency, even ever since I started the Weber group in 1991.

[00:08:24] And I wanted it to be, , the agency that all the coolest companies wanted to work with, all the hottest brands and, and where all the most talented people would come to work and, and never leave. And so I did build that. I just should have been really more specific. Being able 

[00:08:42] Jolie Downs: to build that, I bet.

[00:08:46] What you talked about in the very beginning, how you were saying that you have always been very empathetic and caring and kind and run your companies and run your teams and work with your clients in that way, I would imagine that that right there has allowed you to go again and build another agency that is now successful and find amazing clients to work with you and have retention that is strong in an industry that.

[00:09:19] Fred Bateman: Yeah. No. And as you know, from being a recruiter, you know, it was always really hard to get anyone from Bateman group, , or I hope agency. It's actually 

[00:09:28] Jolie Downs: how we started working with you. , to be honest with you, , I remember my recruiter was like, I cannot get anyone. To get, I cannot get anyone to leave the payment agency.

[00:09:35] We need to work with them. That is 

[00:09:40] Fred Bateman: so flattering. , yeah, no, I was always really proud of our retention rates. , it was a very long time where Bateman group, , was a beautiful, , Fabulous, wonderful place to work, for everybody, maybe, but me, I've 

[00:09:54] Jolie Downs: been to the leader 

[00:09:55] Fred Bateman: a lot sometimes. Yeah.

[00:09:56] Yeah. And I think, those values of empathy, as a retention tool. , weren't really talked about back then, you know, I mean, that's something that you read a lot about in the last five years, but back in the, , the two, the knots and even the early 2000 teens, it wasn't really considered a management tool or strategy.

[00:10:13] And I felt , it was just so powerful in terms of being able to retain and get people invested , and making them feel special and heard and like to have a voice. And , I've tried to take it a step further with this new agency, and really have founded it around not only those principles, but also salary transparency for all employees, very new.

[00:10:33] , and, , it's funny because I, I know we're the only agency that really does it to this degree, , where the P and L is. Available to any employee at any time. , I always let everybody know where the profits are and where they're going and why, and there's none of the secrecy and agendas, , about the profits, , I feel like this new model of salary, transparency, and, , equal pay for equal work. I mean, all the people at the same titles have the same salary for the most part, , within a very tiny, tiny range. And I think. That , I'd never go back.

[00:11:03] I would never go back to hiding the ranges again or negotiating with candidates behind closed doors or bringing someone in higher because they, we thought we might lose them to another agency only to have them not perform as well as we thought, you know, all this 

[00:11:17] Jolie Downs: fascinating. I think this is great. The complete because transparency is the name of the game and that is a very big deal right now in culture and it's want transparency, but this is new, this level of transparency that you're saying that everything is open, like even everyone's Salaries, all of that.

[00:11:32] I think that's very interesting and that's been working well for you. 

[00:11:35] Fred Bateman: Yes. Radical transparency, like, you know, radical candor, but, , I think it's at first a little bit, I mean, I I've always been as a person, very radically candid, , which is sometimes. A little tough for people to get used to, you know what I mean?

[00:11:51] And , not in an offensive way, but in a way that, , I can't keep a secret for longer than five minutes, unless I forget it, which happens more frequently now, of course I can't for like announcement under NDA or whatever. I'm going to be 

[00:12:04] Jolie Downs: honest. I think a lot of these, these personality things may come from the Catholic upbringing, if I'm honest, guilt, having to, you know, can't keep a secret.

[00:12:15] You have to confess, we have to confess as well. So these were things that have plagued me that I had to overcome in my much older age as well. 

[00:12:23] Fred Bateman: Yeah, that was funny. I, I was always safe. I had a memoir, I would call it the best little Catholic boy in greater Boston because that was definitely the one who did the stations of the cross committed.

[00:12:35] And, over my course of my life, I've realized. God, you know, what was I doing? I was, , committing myself so much to being so perfect at a religion that would never accept me as a gay man, you know, as once I discovered my sexuality. So now I'm an atheist. The journey. Yeah, but, , I think if you ask, , we recently did an employee.

[00:12:56] A satisfaction survey for the first time, , at the end of 2023. And, , I was very pleased to see that, , these experiments, if you will, the empathy or empathetic type leadership has always been there with both agencies. I think the, people before profits and , relationships before revenue was.

[00:13:14] A carry over, but it's nice to see that the radical transparency that we're experimenting with is also, , contributing to a very high employee satisfaction and agency experience metric score. So 

[00:13:27] Jolie Downs: that's fantastic. That's, I mean, that's, that's A huge win. So, Fred, , I'm curious. I know you have a lot of stories.

[00:13:34] I know you have a lot of stories. 

[00:13:35] Fred Bateman: I know where the bodies are buried. Everywhere. 

[00:13:38] Jolie Downs: Well, what's one that was an impactful lesson for you? Something that happened in your work that you really learned something from? And, and hearing it, would you benefit other people? Because they can learn this lesson by hearing this story.

[00:13:50] Fred Bateman: , you mean for me, my personal career or for like business building? Yeah. 

[00:13:56] Jolie Downs: Either one, whatever comes to mind. 

[00:13:59] Fred Bateman: , well, as an agency owner, much faster to terminate. I was always, , afraid during my first.

[00:14:06] Business venture. I never initiated a termination of anybody. I would work around people's deficits for 20 years and never say anything because I was just so grateful to have anybody who wanted to help me build it. I didn't know is that I just wanted it to succeed. Bateman group to succeed at any cost.

[00:14:23] If they like, If I couldn't be convinced to cut off an arm that it would help the company succeed, I would have probably considered it, you know, for a minute , I was that insecure as an entrepreneur and as a business leader, , that I would, , just, want to keep the team in place.

[00:14:37] I never thought about whether there was. People that would later, become toxic and do me harm. And, my business partners, seem to enjoy it.

[00:14:51] I've now had to take that on onto myself. , and I've, we've made some poor hiring choices with Bateman agency, even in the four years that we've been in existence, just there's very high standards for excellence that I don't even set comes from the rest of the team. You know what I mean?

[00:15:05] That, certain people couldn't reach. And, there's been a lot more involuntary churn, , this agency, 

[00:15:11] Jolie Downs: it sounds like you're keeping strong boundaries in your own company is what you're doing.

[00:15:17] Fred Bateman: I'm just recognizing when someone's not a long term fit, a lot faster and moving fast where before I would give eighth, ninth, 10th chances, you know, to people and, , let's be grateful they were there. So that was a hard. Lesson as a naturally kind and empathetic person for me to do. I mean, I have to kind of disassociate, go into , my safe space, , when we do the termination, but , it's always for the best.

[00:15:41] You can't get rid of a performer 

[00:15:42] Jolie Downs: family. Well, and you're learning that you need to take care of yourself and taking care of yourself is taking care of your company and taking care of your company is making sure that you have top performers and keeping those boundaries strong of what you need.

[00:15:52] And you're , in the performance of your employees. So, and I think that is very valuable. I'm curious though, because look, I completely agree. Terminating people is a very uncomfortable and difficult thing to do. Have you, because you've been faced with having to deal with this, have you found that there is a best practice in letting people go?

[00:16:11] Fred Bateman: , yeah, there's obviously the legal processes that you have to follow to avoid any kind of litigation after, with pips and those kind of things, but I, I feel like, we're always treating people very kind and approaching terminations, with empathy and kindness is so important and with a little bit of , advice, there's a lot of times when people Get to say the director level that are just never going to really be able to make it to, to VP.

[00:16:36] , because there's expectations of a VP , at Bateman , are quite high. , you're expected to be, , masters of multiple tech domains, , be able to build your own portfolios, , they have to be extremely strong at what they do on agency side. And then a lot of times I've counseled people to the corporate side because they think that they've run their course at an agency and that they're.

[00:16:56] Never really going to be able to handle what you have to be as a VP, which is managing so many multiple parts and clients and knowing , when to jump in and when not to, and when to let the team have enough rope to hang themselves with. There's just, it just takes a certain person. And usually, , they need to be homegrown.

[00:17:12] You bring someone in from the outside at a VP level who hasn't worked either at Bateman Group or with me at Bateman Agency, , it's very difficult to adjust. So, , we've always tried to handle them with a lot of empathy , and some people that we've terminated have turned around and hired us as their agency when they've ended up on the corporate side and followed by 

[00:17:31] Jolie Downs: us.

[00:17:32] That speaks volumes. I love that so much. That speaks volumes. 

[00:17:36] Fred Bateman: I think they realized, well, if it was too hard for me to handle it, I want them in my corner, , that kind of thing. Because they realized that it was, we do provide, I think, exceptional. Service and incredible content. I'm so proud of how quickly the teams come together with the second agency and the kind of work that we're doing.

[00:17:57] Jolie Downs: What do you think is most important to you to find in talent when you bring people onto the Bateman agency? 

[00:18:02] Fred Bateman: I think I've been so lucky, there's a lot of karma. Like I know people, I'm not that new agey at all. , I don't believe in most of that stuff, but I believe in personally, anybody who started a business and this is not my second one.

[00:18:16] If they tell you karma hasn't played some kind of a role or at least. Putting positive energy in the universe of some kind, and it does, it comes back to tenfold. I mean, it's really, I can't tell you about how many times , I've been shocked at the talent that's just coming to the door right when I needed it.

[00:18:32] I mean, it's happened just recently where my, head of operations from Bateman group was working in another agency. I thought for sure she was alive for there now and, , next thing I knew, she called me and said that, , she was done there and wanted to come back and help me grow the second agency, Shannon Ostheimer.

[00:18:46] So, so I mean, right then I was so desperate for an ops person because I was handling it on my own after we made a bad hire in operation. So, that just happens all the time. , and then I sort of had a wishlist. I can't solicit obviously from. From my previous agency, but I had a wish list of certain people that I hoped would maybe consider one day, , coming over.

[00:19:06] I wasn't sure when and in the top top three have already come over. You know what I mean? Amazing. , yeah, I would never ever solicit or encourage them. I think. There's room for both agencies in the market. You know, , I'm not bitter like that. I mean, I want them to succeed and I'm glad that they are.

[00:19:21] And, our focuses are a little bit different. They're definitely a little bit more consumer brand or tech, tech consumer brand focused. I've always been more like dev ops and deep tech. So, so there's definitely room for both agents, both, of the former Bateman group and the now mission north and, and, and Bateman agency in the market.

[00:19:39] So it's just a different experience. So, you know what I mean? If people want to bring it back to being small and all the benefits of being at back at a boutique and, , then they can come here if they want to work on the big brands within the bigger teams. , then there's a mission North.

[00:19:51] So I kind of like that. There's multiple options, you know, that, Oh, yeah, 

[00:19:56] Jolie Downs: I love that. It's such an abundant role. And you're, yeah, you have your touch on a couple of different areas that are special.

[00:20:05] Fred Bateman: One thing that's tough is the lead building the pipeline, you know, it was lead flow. , particularly now, I mean, it's, it's so dry. The VCs are sort of becoming a little bit hostile towards PR firms. And, , why do you think that is? Well, , it started with interest rates, but now it's become something else entirely, , where, , I know for our clients that are seeking, their series B or series C, you know, there's what the VCs, even their existing investors, not even talking about bringing on a new one.

[00:20:35] , and even VCs that were very marketing forward, have, kind of turned sour on external spend on PR.

[00:20:41] And, I feel a little bit of hostility even, , for some of our clients, that they're getting from their investors about the fact that they have an outside PR firm that , they spend money with. But thankfully, a lot of the CEOs that we work with are also very strong and have backbones and they're pushing back and saying, no, this is what we need.

[00:20:59] This is the right agency. The team's doing a great job. It's helping. It's going to help with our valuation. You know, we're not cutting just for cut, so that you, feel better about making, , An investment in our series B, but there is definitely, , one thing that's changed.

[00:21:12] I think is there, the VCs are just holding back from allowing their portfolio companies to make any hires, any kind of like what they deem unnecessary expenses, or actually asking them even cut their, total burn rate by 25 percent before even coming to the table. It's very, it's very unique. It's, it's very unique dynamic, , that I hope stops pretty soon.

[00:21:34] Have 

[00:21:34] Jolie Downs: you been using any new tactics because you've been dealing with these new things that are happening in the market, essentially that you're having to deal with, , no, I 

[00:21:40] Fred Bateman: haven't, but I have seen some of our, my competitors, , beginning to do the cold emailing.

[00:21:45] And, and I've always felt that's a little bit, you know, that's a desperation tactic. But I do know my clients get, Cold emails from even my friendly competitors once in a while. And I don't, we haven't gotten to that point yet. We're just trying to keep, , the clients that we do have really, really happy and luckily their budgets are all very healthy and, sort of wait it out.

[00:22:06] There was, at the end of last year, we saw a little bit of a surge. And as I mentioned, we won about half of what we went after, which, it was not our typical win loss ratio. It's usually 80, 20, but this time it was like 50, 55, 45 for last year. So we had some, New clients to ramp and some really exciting ones.

[00:22:24] We won this wonderful, , video and photo AI company called Topaz Labs that nobody knows about yet, but it's like a rocket ship that's just taking off and, we've got a couple of loyal clients that are local, like Checker, the employee background company that's been a wonderful partner, Observe, which is Jeremy Burton's company that spun out a snowflake, , he's on the board of Snowflake and that have continued to invest in, , and post in cybersecurity, , Centra and, , Tynes, which is an Irish company that I love and it's a delight to work with.

[00:22:56] And all of our clients are just so delightful. I'm so I feel very different. Yes. 

[00:23:03] Jolie Downs: I admit I'm a little fascinated with AI, that AI company that you mentioned is going to, everyone's going to know about. Is that, is it a service that a lot of people are going to be using? Is that why? 

[00:23:10] Fred Bateman: Well, they just have a better, , tool.

[00:23:13] Then what open AI currently offers for photographs and videos, but mainly for restoration of old photographs. Yeah, so it's like we just got on a rocket and you know, they're talking in your times this week and talk, I mean, there's already been like, You know, business press inquiries that have been inbound.

[00:23:32] And, and so we're just helping them to, operationalize their PR because it's still a small company based in Dallas and, they weren't prepared for this attention, , because they've had their tool out for longer than the other players. And , it's really, , quite popular with, , prosumer photographers , and that kind of crowd.

[00:23:47] So, we're going to help them go enterprise and, build a whole program from scratch. , those are the best kind of clients that, , come to us when they're generally series B or C, so they can afford the full program and we can help them, put them on the map and on the road to market leadership and, even to IPO, those are the ones that, , we do best with, , but right now what we're seeing in the pipeline too, is a lot of, already publicly traded clients where they have more control over how they spend their money and they're dissatisfied with their current agency, and that's always a little tougher for us as a boutique because, the bigger agencies.

[00:24:19] Tend to, , fair, better when a brand that's established, , wants to make a switch. , some luck, we worked with new relic for four years, which I considered a great turnaround story when they came to us. They're really needed to turn on perceptions about the brand, especially with developers.

[00:24:33] So that that's a specialty of ours is, the dev ops sector and developer driven marketing engineering led brands. So that felt really good. They were required with private equity. That's when we brought on observe one of their, up and coming competitors. So we can do the same thing for that.

[00:24:47] Yeah. 

[00:24:47] Jolie Downs: Very cool. Very cool. Well, , I know we, touched on the fact that it's been, a difficult year , in the PR industry over the past year and whatnot, which is why I believe that a lot of times when you go through difficult times, it's really easy to, um, There's some negativity or what have you and so I'm really a big proponent in proactively feeding the mind in positive ways I I'm curious if If you have anything to share of anything that you may have either read, watched, or listened to that positively impacted you, that could positively impact other people 

[00:25:20] Fred Bateman: as well.

[00:25:23] Sort of about, , life or management or leadership? Anything. 

[00:25:26] Jolie Downs: It doesn't even have to be anything. It could be anything that just, you know, was positive to you. So, you know, um, had an impact. Like, it's just something that resonated. And you remember, you know, those things that stick with you. 

[00:25:37] Fred Bateman: I have recently, I was reading James Baldwin, , the, , celebrated author who I didn't really know as much about in college, black author, gay.

[00:25:46] Of course, I went to a Catholic university, probably not going to be at the top of the summer reading discovering James Baldwin later in life. , I am reading, , his books, , his overall issue, , has been, , amazing for me because he's always so optimistic and positive about the, , that love will win out, you know, and , not sexual love.

[00:26:06] He means like love of kindness. And, , even when the stories are about. , the migration from the south or the black migration to the north, or, , Jim Crow, or, you know what I mean? Like these really, difficult times in history. But as stories always end with, , these optimistic sort of love will win out, if we just, care for each other and show, I'm gonna cry already, , , but I've, , having been through some difficult times myself, I, , have really latched onto his ethos, , about.

[00:26:34] How, , at the end of the day, , the hatred, your love conquers hatred. 

[00:26:38] Jolie Downs: Right. Love leads all. Yes. Lead with love. Always. I completely agree. It's kind of 

[00:26:44] Fred Bateman: Everybody read all his books. You know, and, What would 

[00:26:47] Jolie Downs: you start with? Which one would you start with? If no one's, if someone has never 

[00:26:50] Fred Bateman: read one?

[00:26:51] Well, depending on where you're coming from, , Giovanni's room \ is a great, great one at four. If, if I, as a gay man, , reading that his 1956 novel Giovanni's room. was really moving to me.

[00:27:06] , but I think in terms of like society and race, , there's Go Tell It on the Mountain and Notes of a Native Son. Go Tell It on the Mountain is his most well known book and first book about, the great migration. , so yeah, , those are probably where I'd start. I love, 

[00:27:21] Jolie Downs: I love, I love good news suggestions.

[00:27:23] So thank you for sharing that with me. You know, It's crazy as I 

[00:27:26] Fred Bateman: read very Like modern, you know what I mean? Like, , the things that he describes are as contemporary and timeless as they were earlier in the 20th century. It's yeah. So, , that, that's kind of one thing that makes me hopeful given.

[00:27:41] What we might be facing in the next election cycle. Oh gosh.

[00:27:49] Appeal of Roe versus Wade, , those things really, , being, , even in gay manner. I mean, obviously, I, I. Empathetic towards what women are facing now with the, , reproductive rights being taken away. And I, and I know we're next on the list on the hit list, , with the way the Supreme court is set up.

[00:28:04] So I, one thing that I really try to encourage with the whole staff at agencies is, universal awareness of things going on in the world, there's still a lot of mass shootings, but, that was one, cause that , I really tried to build awareness from and with Bateman group , and we donated money to common sense gun laws, legislation and things like that.

[00:28:22] And now there's so many things that are that, so that I, so the steps is intellectually curious and then also, , I've always been extremely passionate about technology and its evolution. Over the years, , I can't say that I've, mastered AI and what's going on there, but I love to sit down with the team and tell them about, you know, before the whole PC, , evolution, , back when it was microcomputers or when I started in the industry, it was just the dawn of the PC era.

[00:28:48] We work with Paul Gillan and Ted and David Strahm and some old trade reporters that have been around as long as I have. And we'll take the staff in the junior staff, mid level staff through the whole history of. Back when people used to be embarrassed to say they worked at Apple when I first got here in 98, , things like that, they're so shocking to them, you know, or, , before digital music or just how we worked in PR before into your office email, even, you know, just had facts and, , try to keep them, realizing where we fall, that this was a continuum, you know what I mean?

[00:29:19] And that we're all connected and that, , we might be. Might be in our fifties, but we remember a time when, you couldn't even send email within your own office, you know what I mean? Everything was FedEx or whatever it is. And, we still got the job done, you know? So the pace is speed is picked up, but I think, , One thing that's been consistent is there'll always be a need for good, , strategic communication firms for tech companies to partner with that's while there's been ups and downs is always bounced back.

[00:29:47] And I think San Francisco will too, you know, much as it's pretty, , dystopian and in certain states. Areas and, , to talk about the doom loop, you know, I, I've just seen it bounce back from worse. 

[00:29:59] Jolie Downs: It's always a cycle. Thank you for sharing that. Cause you know what? We're always in a cycle. Yes. You've seen it bounce back from worse. It'll bounce back again. Just like anything that 

[00:30:08] Fred Bateman: goes down and comes back up. Keep your team in place so you can benefit the most from when it does bounce back, because we'll be back to the time when we're turning away the companies and trying to find people and fighting over staff.

[00:30:19] You know, it always does. I, I, I looked at these blog posts I wrote for RDShot, PRWeek. Like in 2009 or 2008, right? When that housing recession hit, which that one was hard. Cause it didn't feel like our fault. The. com one felt like maybe that was our fault. It was a little 

[00:30:36] Jolie Downs: bit large, 

[00:30:38] Fred Bateman: but I remember writing something that could be republished today.

[00:30:42] And it was sort of how to hold onto your employees for the rebound. You know what I mean? And you know, you're doing the right things. Cause at that point, there was a lot of layoffs just like today and people were treating their staff. a little bit more like disposable than they should. And , I was grateful that we at that point, my Bateman group all took pay cuts.

[00:31:00] And then, held the team together until things started to get better, even six months later, everything's temporary. Yeah. 

[00:31:07] Jolie Downs: Yes. Yes. It's an important reminder for everyone. Everything's temporary. So this is, this has been great. I've loved the conversation , and I've loved that so much of the messaging has come back to that, that kindness.

[00:31:18] The lead with love, if you will, which, which I feel has been one of the superpowers I've kind of developed in life, like leading with love. , what, before you go, I'd love to know, , what is one of your personal superpowers or one that you've developed over time? 

[00:31:33] Fred Bateman: I think , it's a combination , of, I mean, there's not a word for it, but like, like kindness, generosity, and empathy all in one sort of.

[00:31:42] There should be a 

[00:31:42] Jolie Downs: word for it, right? 

[00:31:44] Fred Bateman: Yeah. I wish I could think of one, but, uh, um, that, and I've always, , been the type to really rigor, I mean, almost to mama bear, , level, , defend my team against, , clients that I thought were treating us unfairly. I'm very quick to resign clients that, , are in any way disrespectful to my team.

[00:32:03] And I think. That's one of the things that, help to retention. The most is they always know Fred has their back that they can make mistakes and I'm still going to side with them, not with the client. And I'm never going to, , force anybody to work with a client that's. , and a lot of them are shocked when I, when they see how quick I am to terminate them because, , they think that all PR firms are desperate for, especially in a down economy, we're all desperate for business and, but, , it doesn't matter, what market it is.

[00:32:32] I can't stand to watch, a CMO. Pick apart a member of the team. You know, it was like, we succeed as a team. We take accolades as a team. We take failures as a team, you know, to pick on an individual. It's just a bullying tactic. 

[00:32:46] Jolie Downs: Thank you for that. I think that's important. It sounds to me like you've developed , some boundary superpowers as well.

[00:32:52] So kudos on that. 

[00:32:54] Fred Bateman: Yeah. People tell me that at times I can be a little bit quick, too quick. This is kind of a funny story to end on. But we're pitching a company in Boston, a subscript company that we really wanted and that people were super nice. And it was during the first time we were using zoom to pitch and it took a while to get used to.

[00:33:13] So while we were presenting, , I noticed that the CEO kept putting us on no video and that the CMO was. What it looked like was playing with his dog with a plastic bag. And it turned out that the, the CEO was having just connectivity problems and the CMO was trying to quiet his barking dog so he could hear us.

[00:33:33] But I immediately it was like, you know, stop the presentation. I was like, we're not going to continue on if you're not going to pay attention to us. But I couldn't see. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't realize what you were trying to do, you know, but, sometimes I can, I can over index.

[00:33:53] Jolie Downs: I can still relate to that because my dog starts barking quite often.

[00:33:59] Fred Bateman: It never dawned on me. They were, they were trying to prepare themselves to better. I thought they were ignoring us, you know, that we weren't important, you know, and, and, , It's just was a misunderstanding in the early Zoom days. , now it's interesting because we prefer to pitch over Zoom, even though we have office space that I'm in right now, because, , it's a little bit easier to, , focus the message and the person who's supposed to be talking when you've heard, , so it's changed a lot, but, but yeah, I was a little bit, too aggressive and while I feel I've earned my sort of moments to, to, you know, when I feel disrespected, I got to learn to rein that in and not always, , Assume the worst sometimes of people that are outside our circle.

[00:34:34] But, I also think the one thing I'm , very proud of is my relationships with my competitors, , even the civil difficult relationship that I maintain with my former business partners, , is still something that, you know, if I had to work at, but, The competitors , in this industry, especially in the San Francisco market, where people are a little bit more open to collaborating and have what kept me going, you know, when I thought I couldn't keep going, , Kathleen great house at Highwire, you know, David Parkinson, you know, I mean, like I, there's these people, , that have been there to remind me that I, were.

[00:35:05] So You know, built an amazing agency once and I can do it again. 

[00:35:09] Jolie Downs: Yes. Oh, God bless those people in our lives. 

[00:35:13] Fred Bateman: The list goes on and on. Julie Carbo, you know, , Not everybody plays nice in the sandbox with the other agencies. I never really understood why I've tried to bring people together doing salary surveys.

[00:35:27] I love that. And, we do in person meetings at the penthouse again here at the Hampstead building now that I'm back in 

[00:35:32] Jolie Downs: the office building. Look, it's an abundant world. It's a very abundant world. It's an abundant industry. There's a lot of opportunity for everybody. There's no reason to not have great relationships amongst all of your peers.

[00:35:44] That's the 

[00:35:44] Fred Bateman: one word I was looking for earlier and I couldn't find was, , I've always taken an abundance mindset to the market rather than the scarcity one. And I think that that's, , helped me stay sane, , but also helped me to, , forge really tight. , and reciprocal, relationships, , mutually beneficial friendships with other agency owners.

[00:36:03] Not everyone, you know, there's definitely the ones that are a little bit too competitive to open up the kimono, but I'm as radically transparent with them as I am with my senior management team when things are going well, I'm, I'm, I'm transparent about that. When they're not, I'm very honest about that too.

[00:36:17] And, , not everybody's always comfortable with that. And I get it, you know what I mean? I still can be. Friendly with the ones that are more reserved or don't want to show the cards. I get it. 

[00:36:27] Jolie Downs: I love it personally. I'm, I'm super transparent as well. I like this. I just share. I'm like, this is what's going on.

[00:36:31] We can, we're just so much, there's so much we can learn from each other when we're just honest and we're authentic. And then, and then really, I find when you're authentic, that's when you find the best relationships, the best connections, cause it's, it's kind of like you find your people really. And, 

[00:36:44] Fred Bateman: , this is our tribe.

[00:36:45] Especially starting an agency by myself, I was desperate for. , mentorship, , early on, I didn't know even like whether it be a C corporate S corporate. I mean, there's so many things I didn't know. , I was a little bit stupid and not even, you got to be a little self deluded, just like 10 years in the business.

[00:37:03] And I had only been in San Francisco five years , and put your name on the door and think that just assume it's going to succeed, you know, 

[00:37:10] Jolie Downs: with not knowing and jumping , is definitely one of the, , The contributing factors to people who are successful. It really is. Sometimes you just gotta like, you know, you just gotta be like, okay, I'm just going to jump and I'm gonna figure it out.

[00:37:21] It's okay. 

[00:37:22] Fred Bateman: Just keep going. Just keep going to take it month to month. And if you persist eventually, I always, this happened with Bateman group and I, and I'm hoping that the same thing will happen with, uh, everything's happening three times the pace with Bateman agency that it took with Bateman group.

[00:37:35] And that makes sense because the brand is obviously out there already and a little bit more established, , and I'm wiser and so is the rest of my senior management team, but, but I'm always shocked at how we're hitting milestones that took me 13 years or 12 years with Bateman group, , which is around the time of really hockey stick, , and that was just the market really taking off at the time, me and my management team matured and we were in our forties and we were prepared for it, didn't need to take advantage of it.

[00:37:59] If it had happened at any other time, the moon's just aligned and, , from, , 20. 13 to 2020, , we just were, we just zoomed to the top of the heap and stayed there , and I think, they've done a good job maintaining their size , and stayed , with the new brand.

[00:38:14] And I give them a lot of credit for, the work with zoom and Canva and they've got great brands. And I'm very proud of that. , I just. I would like that for this new agency to experience in a train ride. , and this next time a little bit more, you know, 

[00:38:28] Jolie Downs: so let's Fred, here's to the moon's aligning for you, for me and for everyone out there.

[00:38:34] Who's listening. That's what we're hoping for, for us all. 

[00:38:38] Fred Bateman: Thank you. This too shall pass. This is the best part of it right now, but things can only get better. 

[00:38:45] Jolie Downs: Thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and joining me on the Career Wanderlust 

[00:38:51] Fred Bateman: podcast.

[00:38:52] Thanks, Jolie.