Today, we are talking with Tim Donovan. Tim has over 25 years of integrated corporate communications and public relations storytelling experience. He has been a driving force in leading B2B technology companies. Not only is he a comms professional, but Tim is also the author of Narrative Generation, a book on leveraging the power of the narrative for business transformation.
[00:00:31] He uses the principles found in the book to positively influence his companies and clients. Tim is currently the president of Actual Agency, where he helps transform brands in the B2B tech space. And I'm really excited to learn more. Thank you for joining us on the Career Wanderlust podcast, Tim.
[00:00:48] Tim Donovan: I am so glad to be here, Jolie, and thank you for that kind introduction.
[00:00:52] I, I appreciate it. Well,
[00:00:54] Jolie Downs: you've done a lot in your career. It's impressive. So I'd love to know, because I'm sure throughout your career, you've been given all kinds of different career advice. What, Has been the advice that's resonated the most with you and
[00:01:08] Tim Donovan: why man? That's a good question and I have a lot of thoughts on that And it may sound cliche The first piece of advice is is something that I think many people probably hear but don't really Take in which is you got to follow your passion You have to really follow what you're in love doing.
[00:01:29] And it may take time. Sometimes, you know, it takes years to sort of figure it out. Some people are really lucky that they know that right out of the gate. But you want a career where you wake up every day and you're excited. And for storytelling, , I've been in this business now for Almost 30 years.
[00:01:50] And, , I love storytelling. I was, I've loved storytelling ever since I was a child, , we grew up without television. And so we, we read lots of books and sat around with our elders and grandparents. And, , so storytelling was really. Key to driving my own passion and so yeah, so I think I think first aligning with your passion figuring out what that is and you may have some fits and starts, but the closer you can get to that, the more successful you'll be in your career.
[00:02:21] Second thing. Is find your mission, which is different than passion and the best jobs that I've ever had have been mission based where I've really believed in what the company was doing, who they were serving, what they were trying to solve two examples of that. I was very lucky to lead global communications for a company called Funbox that, , helped small businesses get access to credit and that's.
[00:02:50] That's great. Yeah. You know, uh, we have lots of small business owners in my family, and so it was near and dear to my heart and I just loved the mission and just felt so, , connected to it. And the other company I can list was a company called comply advantage that I ran global comms for as well. And they're in the business of fighting financial crime by tracking down money laundering.
[00:03:14] Thank you. Yeah, I know. And so two examples of. Companies that had. Missions that really rolled up to social good. So I think, you know, another piece of advice beyond passion is find a mission that you can really believe in because that motivates you to get up every day and do your best. , two more pieces.
[00:03:38] Yeah, if that's okay, two more pieces
[00:03:41] Jolie Downs: of advice. Please, we have advice. Okay,
[00:03:43] Tim Donovan: cool. The third thing that I found is you want to surround yourself with good people that are like minded. Oh yeah. And you don't always get that choice in a work environment, but chemistry But what does
[00:03:56] Jolie Downs: like minded mean to you?
[00:03:57] Because it means different things to different people. So I'd like, I'd like to know what that means
[00:04:00] Tim Donovan: to you. Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. I think like minded means that you're, you're, you're first committed to helping the, the company you're working at achieve its goals. And you believe in what the company is doing and its mission and its values.
[00:04:15] , and like mindedness is also about how you work together and collaborate, you know, like, do you have good chemistry with the people that you're working with? Do you trust them? You know, are you. Feeling like you're part of a team and not isolated. And so, , I found that to be really inspiring when I've worked with teams where everybody was sort of in the same boat rowing together.
[00:04:41] Feels so good, huh? I know, it feels great. And you know what? You do your best work when you have that. All
[00:04:48] Jolie Downs: of these things that you've mentioned really is what helps you do your best work. It's what helps you excel when you're passionate, when you're mission driven, when you're working with like minded people that are all uplifting and working together.
[00:04:58] I mean, this is like the magic formula, right?
[00:05:00] Tim Donovan: I think so. And I think sometimes people Either don't look for the, that combination or they settle for less and then they become dissatisfied , with their job. And I just sort of having had a multitude of jobs, , and learning from those experiences.
[00:05:18] These are the things that I keep coming back to. And the last one. I promise is stay curious. Curiosity is really like a driving factor. And , for me, , in how it manifests and work is problem solving, thinking about different angles, different conversations. Different ways of, creating new things.
[00:05:40] I'm a naturally curious person, which is also why I'm a storyteller. Cause I'm a ravenous consumer of information and news and stuff like that. So I think those four things of, follow your passion. Have a mission, try to align with like minded people, and stay curious are, are really good things to, to sort of use as tools to find that right place for
[00:06:04] Jolie Downs: you.
[00:06:04] Absolutely. And the combo is, is absolutely magical and, and taking your career to the next level when you're using all of them together. Totally. , what I'm curious about, because here's what I would imagine, I would imagine some people might be listening to this and thinking, whoa, follow your passion, so easy.
[00:06:20] Now, have you ever. Worked in a position that it did not feel like you were following your passion. And if so, what did you do about it?
[00:06:27] Tim Donovan: Yeah, no, I've, I've had plenty of jobs where the job sounded great, took the role, got in there and either I was not inspired by the team or the technology. Or the sort of opportunity in itself.
[00:06:45] And, , I'm one of these people that really likes to dig in and give it, give it my all. But at some point in time, you have to ask yourself the question, is this sort of like an experience of diminishing returns? Right. You know, so I think. With all things, with all jobs, everything, when it starts out being new, there's a lot of unknowns, you know, and, , it's worth hanging in and just sort of learning about the business, learning how you're going to collaborate with folks, learning about projects, so on and so forth.
[00:07:14] But after time. If it's really not hitting those notes, , the best thing you could probably do is think about finding something that's closer to what you're looking for. But I think we, I think we all have had that experience and, you know, to your point, , finding your passion, chasing your passion isn't necessarily easy because.
[00:07:33] You might have a lot of different interests. , some are great, but some will never make you money. Some will make you money, but maybe in ways that you, you don't like or, you know, or frustrating. So I go back to, , it takes time , to find. The right places that connect to your passion, but they're out there.
[00:07:51] That's the only thing you just have to, you know, finding the right job is like, it's like sales. It's a numbers game, right? You have to just think about how many opportunities are out there that you can test or learn more about. And that hopefully gets you closer to where you want to be.
[00:08:06] Jolie Downs: Absolutely. And there's lots of ways to work around your passions too. I mean, like, I mean, if maybe your passion is sports and or football specifically, you know, and maybe, maybe you don't get the job working for, you know, the 49ers or what have you, but maybe you have a job that's involved with sports or involved in this sport in some way.
[00:08:24] And so it has those elements. So that's and you brought up something that I want to just make note of because you brought up the fact that look, whenever we try something new, it's, it's unfamiliar and it's uncomfortable. And so it is an important distinction to give it time, right? Because any new job is going to feel uncomfortable.
[00:08:41] It's going to just naturally because it's unfamiliar. And again, anything unfamiliar feels uncomfortable until it becomes. familiar. So give it time to become familiar. So you know, is this just because I'm uncomfortable or is it because this isn't the right spot for me? So I thought that was a really nice distinction to point out.
[00:08:59] Tim Donovan: Yeah, I agree. I think we all, you know, everything that's new gives us some level of discomfort because it's new, but that makes it worth . Staying put, learning more, you know, giving yourself the time to become educated and experienced and then make a decision afterwards.
[00:09:16] Jolie Downs: Absolutely. So, so what about an impactful story?
[00:09:20] I mean, I'm sure you've had many things happen to you over the course of your career. Is there one or two stories that come to mind of something that happened to you that it actually gave you an important lesson and by sharing this other people could have some value?
[00:09:35] Tim Donovan: Yes, well, I have one that's actually sort of in the news cycle right now, which is, sort of connected to it, but I'm sure people may have been watching that Lyft had issued a press release.
[00:09:49] a, , extra zero. It was, it was a earnings press release and it caused great market consternation because the trading bots caught onto this, , error and the valuation of the company increased by 3. 5 billion, something within a very short period of time. And then of course, when the error was corrected, the valuation went back down and the, CEO had, , , taken the, the sort of responsibility for this mistake.
[00:10:19] I, in a younger version of myself had a similar situation where I issued a press release that shouldn't have been put out into the public domain. , and it, , was an investor of a company that I co founded, and, , it created, , a huge amount of problems for not only my investor, but also for our management team.
[00:10:42] And, , you think about those things, and you think, my career is done. It's over with. , but the good news is I survived and I'm sure the folks at Lyft and their communications and IR Vesta relations team will survive as well. But the point being is mistakes happen, but you really want to slow things down, make sure that you have your.
[00:11:07] Eyes dotted and your T's crossed. I mean, we all, I think all of us in, in all of our capacities have had moments in our careers where we're like, man, I really wish that wouldn't happen. , but those are the things that, you know, teach you lessons and they make you stronger. And. It gives you the opportunity when somebody is having that experience to say, you know what, I've been there before, you know, you'll pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on.
[00:11:36] But I think when I was a younger PR person, I was convinced that that was a career ending move. And I was really, really upset about it. But I found, , that was, I don't know, 20 years ago. So I'm still here to say that. You know, it's okay to make mistakes, you know, it's not definitely something that I haven't repeated since.
[00:11:57] You
[00:11:58] Jolie Downs: learned from the experience, correct?
[00:12:01] Tim Donovan: Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but I think, I think in, in our world, Communications. Everybody's got some sort of scar, you know, where they
[00:12:10] Jolie Downs: everybody, but I love this message. It's an important message because look, we do, we make mistakes and, and if you haven't had a lot of experience, that is going to be the first, that is going to be the first reaction.
[00:12:20] It is going to be like, Oh, it's all, even if you had a lot of experience, sometimes it might be the reaction.
[00:12:27] But the key thing is, is regardless of what happens after, as long as you take the time to sit with what happened and learn from it, like, What can I do bet? How can I not make this happen? And , what can I learn from this to make myself better, to make my company better, to make any situation better?
[00:12:42] As long as you take the time to do that, it is going to end up benefiting you in the long run. It's going to make you a better person, a better communicator, a better professional all around. And this is how we grow and learn. We all make mistakes.
[00:12:54] Tim Donovan: That's true. And I, I, you know, I've always sort of thought of myself as a student of life.
[00:12:59] You know, like, and so that's part of learning. That's part of learning and growing. And, , for your listeners. Or readers, , I'm sure all of them have had their own moments of distress, and have grown from it. And I think, , what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, truly. There's
[00:13:16] Jolie Downs: a reason that's a very prevalent popular saying.
[00:13:20] Because it's true. Thank goodness. We're going to have to deal with it. At least it's going to make me stronger.
[00:13:28] Tim Donovan: Exactly. Now did you say you had two stories? Well, that one was sort of, the biggest one that I can recall in terms of things that I'm not thrilled about. , I would say though that, , just over the course of my career, , just watching the evolution of communications in general and how the market has changed and, , really.
[00:13:53] I think, fundamentally, with all the things that we see changing, at the end of the day, we're all storytellers. And so, you know, we gotta go back to, you know, and this was, this has been a lesson that I've carried with me my entire career. Which is, the story matters. And that's the thing that people really care about.
[00:14:14] It's the oldest form , of information. Transformation, you know, or transference, I guess, is storytelling. And so I think oftentimes we get, some people get distracted. We get enamored with, , things like chat GPT, where we think it's going to be a replacement for our skill sets. And it's just not, , like we know what good storytelling is and.
[00:14:40] The message here or the lesson that I've learned is going back to story basics and really understanding how to tell a story, how to tap into somebody's belief systems, how to get them excited about the story and how to create an outcome as a result of that. And I've carried that lesson with me. You know, there are times in my career.
[00:15:00] We're sort of deviated from like traditional storytelling to being more experimental and things that were sort of like mediocre results, but I think, you know, in our world, keeping a sense of what story means and what story can do and just, , kind of meditating on that, including that in your practice.
[00:15:18] That's why I read a lot. I read a lot of books. I read a lot of , Magazines, , I'm really into different types of storytelling, but I think it's, I think it's an important lesson, , for our community that , we have to keep , the idea and the flame of storytelling lit bright and not get distracted from that.
[00:15:36] Beautiful.
[00:15:37] Jolie Downs: Like you said, I, it's the oldest form of communication and it is the form that connects us all. I mean, that's what binds us, the stories. So I think that's just beautiful. And it's a wonderful reminder all around. So, , you say that you read a lot. , what are some of the things, cause I'm a big proponent of proactively feeding the mind.
[00:15:57] What are some things that you have read or, , listened or watched, , that have had positive impacts on you that could benefit other people? Oh,
[00:16:05] Tim Donovan: I've got a great book that I'd love to recommend. It's a book called Blue Ocean Strategy, and it's a pretty, I say easy to read, meaning it's not like an encyclopedia.
[00:16:18] , but , the concept of Blue Ocean Strategy is really https: otter. ai The opposite of blue ocean is red ocean, and that usually means lots of companies competing for the same brass ring, you know? So let's say you're Coke, I'm Pepsi, you're 100 calories, I'm 50 calories, you're cherry, I'm berry. That creates a blue ocean scenario where people, where businesses are trying to, to compete incrementally against each other.
[00:16:57] It's very hard. It's very competitive. And any of your folks that are listening or that will read will understand that when you're in a competitive market space, everybody's saying the same thing. It's hard to differentiate, really hard to differentiate on the media side because everybody sort of is doing the same thing.
[00:17:16] So the book offers a strategy. That focuses on what they call blue ocean, which is finding this sort of uncontested market space. Is there a market space that you can help your company or your client define that takes what maybe already exists, but makes it better and more interesting? And I'll give you an example.
[00:17:38] Cirque du Soleil is a blue ocean company. And, and the reason for that is if we think about circus, circus has been around for over 2000 years. And so, you know, and probably some folks remember Barnum and Bailey's Ringling Brothers Circus when they were growing up. That's one that I went to. You know, where it had animals and a central ring and all of those things.
[00:18:00] But what Cirque du Soleil did really well, and by the way, they're a multi billion dollar business as a result of this strategy. was they had reinvented the concept of circus. So circus could be on a vertical wall. It could be underwater instead of having live animals. , it would have actors that would assume roles of giant insects or magical creatures.
[00:18:23] And so it's not like the concept of circus hadn't existed and it hadn't been played out in different ways, but they were able to Reinvent it in such a way that it became a new experience. And I think as storytellers, we have that opportunity to find the blue ocean of conversation, you know, where, , the stories that we may be telling for our, our companies or our clients seem derivative, seem like everybody else is sort of saying the same thing, and this is really an opportunity.
[00:18:59] To find that blue ocean conversation. And it may be new language that you use, pattern language, get away from the same shared lexicon that everybody's using. , phraseology, you may take a term from one industry and apply it to another and give it a whole new meaning. And so that, that book, blue ocean strategy really had kind of a profound impact on the way that I think about.
[00:19:22] , helping the either my clients or the companies that I've worked at try to carve out a new space, you know, and and some folks can even say, well, isn't this sort of category creation to some degree, it could be category, it could be narrative, but the philosophy is, don't try to compete in bloody water, just go swim to fresh blue water and define it.
[00:19:44] In a way that's relevant to your ecosystem and everybody else will start to swim over, over time. I love it.
[00:19:50] Jolie Downs: I think that can be applied to other things as well. I'm like, I think this whole, I mean, it helps, it helps, , my mind work in a different way, right? When I'm thinking about something. So I
[00:19:58] Tim Donovan: love this.
[00:19:59] Yeah, I think I'll give you another example too. I think Mark Benioff at Salesforce, right? Came up with the idea of software as a service. And which was counterintuitive back in the days. Everybody had their, they had heavyweight software on prem and he's like, well, you can alleviate cost and complexity by just getting it, you know, downloading it or having it as a, as a way of distribution.
[00:20:27] And so the software industry had been solidified. There are large players. He came in with this new vision and basically. Reinvented the idea of how to get access and manage software. He created a blue ocean. Now it's an industry nomenclature, you know, it's an industry term. Right. So that's a, that's kind of a great example.
[00:20:50] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:51] Jolie Downs: Fascinating. So I, you know, I was just thinking because. You have worked your way up through all kinds of different ladders. I mean, you've been on the agency side, you've been on the corporate side. , you've held the most senior level roles in these positions. I'm curious if there's something that you would share with people who, who are looking to either get the job or move up through the promotion.
[00:21:14] Is there anything that has helped you land your positions? Is there anything that's helped you get these promotions that you could share with other people?
[00:21:23] Tim Donovan: A couple things. , one, it's hard work here, regardless of being on agency or in corporate. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's a practice that you have to commit to.
[00:21:34] And, you know, , understanding your technology set, understanding the marketplace, understanding the ecosystem, understanding your buyers, understanding all of those things. And it takes time to do that. And so you have to think about communications. In the same way that, you know, somebody that's a master woodworker would think about their work.
[00:21:57] It's a craft. Yeah. And so, it takes time and it takes dedication and not everything we do is, is exciting. That's the hard part too, you know, like. My mind wants to run a thousand miles a minute, but , when I was going through my career, there were times where the work was not interesting to me, not exciting, but I knew it was necessary.
[00:22:20] You know, I knew that what I was doing was building skill sets that would. Be the foundation for next, right? So I think, I think really understanding the mechanics of our business, really thinking about it as a craft is one thing. Second thing is, is it's incumbent upon you to expand your knowledge. So, you know, and, , I'm a, again, voracious reader.
[00:22:44] I'm a tech nerd. So, , so that's a passion of mine. So it was easy to sort of dive into. The tech side of PR because I got to see new products and new things. And I got really excited by that. And that kept me. Motivated even when sometimes the work felt like a grind to be perfectly honest. Yeah.
[00:23:03] , chemistry, chemistry is really important, both in terms of the team you're working with, but also the folks that you're serving and your clients can be clients from an agency perspective, or they can be internal clients from a corporate perspective. And so how do you build bonds with the people that you have around that you work with?
[00:23:24] Or that you report into because I think you know The best relationships are the ones that have good connections and good chemistry Um, and then get it. Go ahead. Sorry.
[00:23:35] Jolie Downs: How do you build those bonds with people? How what helps you create stronger bonds would you say?
[00:23:39] Tim Donovan: um In the workforce specifically. In the workforce.
[00:23:42] I think one thing is like, do what you say, say what you do. You know what I mean? Like, you want to be reliable. You want to be trustworthy. You want to be collaborative. You don't want to be crazy. You know, like, but, , you know, I think, I think Good, good relationships require an investment by, by both sides, you know, and you want to put your, you know, you want to be, you want to be relatable.
[00:24:08] You want to share who you are. I always think more than just who you are professionally. So people can connect with you in, in, in real ways. , I spent a lot of time as an, as an agency president now. Talking to my clients, getting to know them. , I've got a trip coming up where I'm going to go to Boston and have dinner with the client just to break bread.
[00:24:33] So I think those relationships really matter. Relationships in general matter. So, you know, it's, it's, it's doing the work. It's making yourself educated. , it's, , investing in relationships. And then the last part is, is the proof is in the pudding, right? Do all of those things lead to results, right?
[00:24:55] And, and , you and I know we live in a world of results, right? Uh, you know, and I've been, yeah. When you're, when you're passionate about what you do and you, and you feel like you're on a mission, you'll get those results because you'll work that much harder results are really hard when you're not into whatever you're working on, you know, but that's sort of like how I, you know, I didn't have any grand design when I got into this business.
[00:25:24] I just knew that I love storytelling and I was going to, , use that as a, as a way , to carve out a career. And then I just, over time learned different types of skill sets and, , learned about the things that I just mentioned. And it's been a, it's been an awesome career. It's been awesome to be able to do what I'm doing.
[00:25:41] So I feel very thankful.
[00:25:43] Jolie Downs: That feels so good. Doesn't it? To look back, I just feel like you were on the right path. You know, you did, you did, you've been on the right path. You're continuing on. You love your future. I just, it's what I hope, it's what I want for everybody. That's just what I want for everybody.
[00:25:56] So
[00:25:57] Tim Donovan: one more thing I'm going to throw in here too is. Find a mentor, too. Oh, isn't that a big, big deal. Yeah, let me just speak volumes to minutes. So, I'm a mentor. I've been a mentor for, I don't know, 15, 20 years. But I was very fortunate My first job was with this little, uh, boutique PR agency called Rourke and Company back in Boston in the eighties.
[00:26:21] And it was run by Cathy O'Rourke Smith. God bless her. She's deceased now, but she was my mentor and she took me under her wing and she was no nonsense as a boss. You know, she really just did not have, she did not entertain fools gladly and she would let you Yeah. But she really took a shine to me and she invested.
[00:26:41] Time, attention, and effort. And to this day, I carry lessons forward , that Kathy, her, we, her nickname was cause that cause had taught me, , and really helped me formulate how I would work in this world and how I work with people and strategy stone and so forth. And I think. We have a tendency, , these days in particular, where people kind of feel like they're islands, like they have to do it all themselves.
[00:27:10] They can't ask for advice, so on and so forth. But mentors are worth their weight in gold. And especially in an agency or in a corporate environment, there's probably somebody there that would connect with you and give you advice and be a great sounding board. And so I've. Been very fortunate. I've had more than one mentor my entire career, and it's been incredibly beneficial.
[00:27:35] So find a mentor. If you need a mentor, you can, you can call me up too. Anybody
[00:27:39] Jolie Downs: out there. That's awesome. That's very, very cool. What a beautiful offer because you're absolutely right. Having a mentor changes so much. I mean, look at the fact that all these years later, you still have this advice. You're still talking about her, her impact on you is.
[00:27:52] Still causing positive ripples in this world and moving it forward. And that is so beautiful. And every mentor out there, that's what you're doing. And, and every person who goes out there and finds a mentor, the things that you learn, you're going to eventually do that and pass it on in these positive ripples.
[00:28:06] So it's a really
[00:28:08] Tim Donovan: beautiful thing. I chuckle because I say that I have a graduate degree from the School of Hard Knocks. And so if I could, if I can dissuade somebody from going into the same program that I graduated from by giving them good advice, right on. Yeah, exactly.
[00:28:23] Jolie Downs: Exactly. Please let us help you.
[00:28:25] Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Thank you so much. Before you go though, I'd love to ask you one final question, Tim. What do you feel is your personal superpower and how has it benefited
[00:28:38] Tim Donovan: you? I, I actually feel like I have a true superpower. And so I am an empath. , and for those that may not be familiar with the term, I have extrasensory Perception of people's energy and, , their moods, whether they're happy, whether they're sad.
[00:28:59] And I've had this ever since I was a child, I thought I was a crazy kid. Cause I'd, you know, like be hanging out with a group of people and like that person's weird, stay away from them. That person needs a hug. , but having, being an empath. Means that you can really tap into the human condition. Like empathy is really important, I think, as a leader and having being an empath means that you can be more empathetic.
[00:29:24] You can, walk in somebody else's shoes. You can feel their happiness or their pain. And for a long time, I thought it was a detriment, but as I got older, I realized being able to have these sort of. Perceptions of people and 99 percent of the time I'm right to has been a real gift because that I can help people kind of uncork their frustrations or amplify their successes.
[00:29:52] So it's been kind of cool. Maybe we'll go out and get a cape someday, but you know, , it's, it's been a great kind of superpower to have, , for many different reasons. Oh, completely
[00:30:04] Jolie Downs: agree. That's it. It's that it helps you connect with others on a deeper level. Right. I mean, just because of that skill, because, because you're able to feel them.
[00:30:14] Tim Donovan: Yes. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's right. And, , It's been just, it's been bananas to have that kind of superpower. So yeah, I feel lucky. I
[00:30:25] Jolie Downs: agree. I think it's one of the major ones out there personally. I, I'm also an empath and I, and I, I like that you said that you didn't think it was that way when you were younger, cause I felt the same.
[00:30:34] And it's something that you just, you, you, you learn how to use and realize how much it brings. Superpowers to your life. It absolutely does. And you know what? People can develop empathy, so you can go out and develop that superpower, even if you're not born with it. That's
[00:30:49] Tim Donovan: right. I think it's a major thing.
[00:30:51] I think we all should be, sharpening our empathy for, for each other. Agreed. Deeper sense of that.
[00:30:59] Jolie Downs: Definitely what the world needs right now. Tim, thank you so much for joining us. This has been wonderful.
[00:31:06] Tim Donovan: I've loved every moment of it and , let me know if I can ever come back. I'd sign up immediately.
[00:31:11] Oh,
[00:31:11] Jolie Downs: fantastic. Thank you.