Rachel Esterline Perkins.
[00:00:00] Jolie Downs: Welcome to the Career Wanderlust podcast, your compass for new career horizons. Today we are talking with Rachel Esterline Perkins. Rachel is a strategic communicator who helps brands tell their stories to build awareness and drive revenue. Now, while she has hands on experience in a variety of industries, Rachel has a particular strength in the education, ed tech and advocacy areas, having worked with the likes of Central Michigan University, Davenport University, K 12 Insight, and she is currently the VP of content with the National MS Society.
[00:00:33] Through all of her roles, Rachel has stayed passionate about mentoring young professionals through their career, and I am sure she's going to have great advice to share. I'm really excited to learn more. Rachel, thank you for joining us on the Career Wanderlust
[00:00:45] Rachel Esterline Perkins: podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation.
[00:00:50] Me too.
[00:00:51] Jolie Downs: Could you share with us what has been some of your favorite career advice
[00:00:55] Rachel Esterline Perkins: and why? Yeah. So I think one of the most important pieces of advice that I've received over the years and have given to young professionals over the years is to not worry about what other people are doing. So in college, I was a carriage driver and carriage horses have blinders on and it keeps them focused on what's in front of them.
[00:01:17] And early on, I heard someone say, put your blinders on, like, Focus on what's in front of you. And I think that's really important because You may see some people getting really cool jobs and have these really great titles. I I know early in my career I was really worried that I was falling behind. I was working at small agencies Nonprofits I then went into higher education and I always worried that You know, maybe some of my career choices would prevent me from getting into the roles that I really wanted in the future.
[00:01:51] But when you see your peers getting in these jobs and maybe their titles are inflated, maybe it's not a great environment and maybe a great brand name, but maybe it's a really toxic environment. So it's important to not think about what they're doing because you don't know what's happening behind their zoom screen or behind closed doors if they're in office.
[00:02:11] So The most important thing you can do throughout your career is focus on your skills, your experience, and your relationships, and I really strongly believe that what prepared me for the role I hold right now is working at those organizations that were a lot smaller. And required a lot of creativity because we didn't have a lot of resources because it made me scrappy, made me creative, and I didn't have the support of big agencies or big teams to do the work.
[00:02:41] And so I learned how to do a lot of different things and right now I oversee paid media, social media, and content on my team. And I've done work and all of those things, and I didn't specialize in just one thing. And so I have this ability to go work with the PR team or the brand team or the web design team, because I've done all of those things in smaller roles.
[00:03:02] So what ended up being what I thought might be my biggest weakness has become my biggest career strength.
[00:03:10] Jolie Downs: I love this so much. It is such wise advice, not only for your career, but in life in general, to keep your focus on yourself, what it is you're doing, what it is you want, and not pay any attention to the other people around because that is, it is a fact.
[00:03:24] , I mean, The more you compare yourself to others, the more unhappy you're going to be. And you do not know what is going on in anyone else's life or when anyone else's career, and it really, it's none of your business. It doesn't really matter because it only matters what's in your career and what it is that you want.
[00:03:39] You know, you're going after that and you're making yourself happy. So thank you for this advice. Really, really wise. Yeah, and I can tell, you know, I think would resonate with people to be honest with you. , because I'm sure a lot of people have felt that way. And I love that, that you share how it has come full circle for you.
[00:03:57] , and that what you once thought was your weakness is actually your greatest strength. And I think that's another theme in life, isn't it? For sure. Yeah. You know, So tell me a story then. , What's something that was impactful, an impactful lesson or event that happened in your career that other people could benefit from hearing about?
[00:04:15] What did you learn?
[00:04:17] Rachel Esterline Perkins: Yeah. So throughout my career, I've had a lot of different roles and the biggest thing that I've seen as a pattern is it's really just important to be authentically yourself in a role. And I know that's really easy to say. But I have turned down a lot of second interviews with roles.
[00:04:35] I've turned down job offers because I knew that I probably couldn't be myself in those roles or that I just was going to be unhappy, that I was going to be bored, very easily bored. I like to do a lot of things. And so a really great example was I was interviewing during the early. Days of the pandemic.
[00:04:56] And I received a job offer from an organization that on paper looked absolutely perfect. So it was a, , job offer for director of communications at a college access nonprofit. So I have worked in higher education for five plus years. I have a master's in higher education administration and went through two rounds of interviews.
[00:05:20] Talked one on one with the person who ran the organization and they made me an offer. And they, when they called and they said, are you still interested in this job? I said, you know what? I'm not, I'm going to withdraw my application. And they were floored. They couldn't believe that I was going to turn it down because.
[00:05:38] On paper, I seemed like a great fit, but I had this gut feeling that it wasn't going to be the right organization for me. I wasn't going to have some of the growth opportunities I was looking for. It wasn't going to level up the skills in the way I was looking for. And it was really scary to turn that job down because I did really want to leave the job that I was in, which was an agency job.
[00:05:59] I had been running campaigns, working 70 hour weeks. I was. Ready to leave that organization just cause it was really intense. And I said, no, and it was scary, but then, , probably a couple of weeks later, it was when I got my next job offer. And so I think it's just really important to know yourself. , so if you have ever taken, , one of the type of.
[00:06:22] Personality working tests. , so predictive index, for example, or disc I've had both of those tests. , I've taken strengths finder. And all of those give you little bits of insight about what makes you tick and what you need in a job. So on the predictive index, I'm a venture, and this means I'm really goal oriented.
[00:06:43] My strengths finder also has high achiever on it. And so I'm a self starter. I get things done. really high sense of urgency and organizations love all of these things when I'm interviewing. They think that it's great to have a person who really wants to take charge. But I also have found that sometimes that means I'm not a fit for that organization because I I don't like really close supervision.
[00:07:08] I don't do well with micromanagement. I'm really direct, which can make some people uncomfortable. I've asked a lot of really direct questions in interviews to gauge whether or not they're comfortable with someone who asks questions like that. And so I, I think that it's important to know what you need in a job.
[00:07:29] , I know. Reflecting on my last role where I was there for two years, I tried really hard to force the job to fit. It never did, and it was hard to accept at a time where I thought, it's not that I'm bad at this job, but I don't like this job. And what is it about this job? And I had to do a lot of reflection to figure out exactly what I wanted in a role and what I valued in an organization.
[00:07:57] And I actually have a list of values that I bring up on screen during my interviews. And what's funny is sometimes they'll ask me like, what are your values? And I'll say, I actually have a document in front of me that has my personal values and what I look for in a supervisor and what I look for in an organization.
[00:08:14] , and. You know, one, it gives me great talking points, but two, I cannot hide from my values when I'm interviewing for a job because it is front and center right in front of me on screen.
[00:08:26] Jolie Downs: So wise. I, I love this so much. You're hitting, two of the most important things. For success in life, really, , you have to know what you want.
[00:08:36] You have to know what it is that you want and get really clear on that. And that's exactly what you did. And you got really clear and you wrote it down. That's like magic and to self awareness. I mean, they've done studies and they've shown that the most successful people, the CEOs, what have you, the ones that are really successful, the contributing, the most contributing trait overall is self awareness.
[00:09:00] that they have the self awareness. They know what works for them, what doesn't work for them, and you make adjustments and you find the other people that kind of fill the gaps. You find the right job. You find the right department. You know the type of manager that works for you. So, really wise all around.
[00:09:14] And that's something that I hope other people take away. Good self awareness. And know what you
[00:09:21] Rachel Esterline Perkins: want. Yeah. Self awareness is incredibly important. I went through a 360 degree review at my last job and it was one of the most valuable experiences in my career because the way it was formatted, you Ranked yourself on some strengths and then on your areas of development and had some comments on, you know, where you thought you fell within each.
[00:09:46] And one of the things that we noticed when I got my results back were that I was very aware of the areas that I needed to develop and that. You know, , and also was hard on myself in some areas too. But I think people who are self aware are really hard on themselves. , so it's kind of a double edged sword.
[00:10:03] It's really good for your career success, but you also have to figure out how to balance that because I think it also can take over. In a negative way, , but the, the 360 review was really helpful because it, it gave me some opportunities to see what other people saw in me and helped me continue to shape myself as a leader within the organization and as even an individual contributor.
[00:10:27] That's great. And
[00:10:28] Jolie Downs: you gave some really great examples of different personality tests that people could take to learn more about them. Which ones are your favorite, would you
[00:10:34] Rachel Esterline Perkins: say? So I think Predictive Index is one of my favorites. It was spot on. I think DISC is really interesting as well. One that may be lesser known is Motivation Code, so I had purchased the book, there's a book called Motivation Code, and , I think I had purchased it right when it was coming out, so it included the full test, and so it ranks your Yes, you , motivations from top to bottom.
[00:11:02] And it doesn't mean that you're bad at the things that fall at the bottom, it just means that that's not what excites you. So mine, my top one was called Achieve the Ideal, which totally makes sense for me because I'm someone who's constantly trying to shape things to perfection, which I like to say I'm a recovering perfectionist.
[00:11:21] I'm not a perfectionist. , but my least, . You know, my lowest score was in collaboration and so it's not that I don't like to collaborate with other people. I love collaborating with really bright people. I love collaborating with my team, but it's not what drives me. It's not what motivates me. I have a lot of other things that motivate me and excite me.
[00:11:45] And if my job was only collaborating with others, then I might it. Get eventually like a little burnt out. I think maybe also being an introvert. Like I might be like, I need some space. I love I like to collaborate, but then also take some time to think on my own or vice versa. Spend some time thinking on my own and then bringing the ideas to a team.
[00:12:04] So I think that can be a really interesting test to take to see. What really drives you and it's a pretty detailed test You have to think of specific situations and in your career and then reflect on them So I it takes a little bit of time to take but it was really helpful just for me to see how I ranked in different areas and What that meant for me and I even had my team take it at my last job and we talked about What their strengths meant versus my strengths and and I think that that's where those Types of tasks can be really useful.
[00:12:40] So at my current role, we all take the strengths finder and a lot of people will put their strengths right in their email signature, which is really helpful because you know why maybe they are doing certain things or you know that they might prefer certain things. So people who score really high on input and they have that in their first five, I always try to make sure that I'm giving them opportunities to have some input.
[00:13:05] I, I score. High on strategic. I score high in responsibility. , I score really high as an achiever. And so, you know, that gives me insight into myself as well of where my superpowers might lie.
[00:13:21] Jolie Downs: Thank you for sharing this because I mean, just incredibly helpful for anyone to learn more about themselves, but also like you're doing for yourself, implementing into your team.
[00:13:30] So you can learn about each other, learn how to work. Better with each other. , and make sure that everyone's getting what they need. I think that's fantastic. Really, fantastic suggestions. So could you, could you tell us a little bit more about, , MS society? I mean, who are the type of people who do well at your company?
[00:13:45] What do you look for in your talent?
[00:13:47] Rachel Esterline Perkins: Yeah, so I have recently been hiring for a few roles and I'm about to close a role really soon in terms of making an offer and so this is really top of mind for me because I have just gone through a lot of applicants, I've been through a lot of interviews and I've been through a lot and What I'm really looking for beyond skills and experience is really someone who has a growth mindset, so they're coachable, they're willing to listen and learn from their experiences, and then someone who can collaborate in a really complex matrix organization.
[00:14:23] So there are hundreds of people who work for the society and I'm six months in. I still haven't met everyone. I'm still meeting new people. I'm still learning things every day. And so we need people who can do the work, but also can drive the work by, by using their skills, , their soft skills. So. I have a really great story that I like to tell about a candidate because I think sometimes people get stuck and they're like, I don't have enough experience.
[00:14:53] I shouldn't apply for this job or, you know, just not thinking that they're qualified. And so at my last job, I was hiring a content specialist and I had several candidates who had. , extensive writing experience, , and I had one candidate who had been working as a teacher and freelancing on the side to really build her portfolio.
[00:15:17] So I had interviewed these three people. They're my three finalists. I gave them a writing assignment, which was. Fairly easy. It was fairly straightforward. So I had conducted an interview with our head of research and had written already several blog posts from that transcript. So if they dug really deep, they actually could find stuff that we'd already written.
[00:15:37] , and they just had to take this transcript and write a blog post. And there's a lot of different angles that they could have written from. I was just really curious how they pulled information from a transcript. And two writers submitted content. That was good. It was fine. I didn't have any concerns. I think they could have done the job just fine.
[00:15:55] The third writer went just really above and beyond. I could tell that she had read our blog. She wrote her headline in the way we write headlines. She had sub headers. She had a call to action exactly how we did our call to action. She even took a step further and she designed a blog header that matched our blog headers.
[00:16:13] And so she really Showed how much she did her research and how she was really just excited about the work. And while the other people had more experience, I, I was really interested in hiring her because I could tell she was going to work harder than anyone else. She was going to be more curious than anyone else.
[00:16:35] She was going to have that growth mindset and she was definitely, I would say my best hire during my time there because I watched her grow exponentially and. I think that it's important to think that, yeah, you might be 100 percent qualified for the job and you might not get it because there's someone who's 75 percent but they have that thing that I can't teach you.
[00:16:57] I can teach you how to write. I can coach you on writing. I can't tell you how to be more curious sometimes or to be more motivated or enthusiastic about the work. So. You can really find creative ways to stand out when you're interviewing for a job and it doesn't have to be your experience because time and time again, I have hired people who have less experience because they just want it more and they're proving to me that they can, one, do the job, but two, they're going to grow a lot within the organization.
[00:17:30] So I think that that's really important to think about. And when I'm interviewing people, I also am interviewing to get some insight into how they think. So for example, critical thinking, that's a, that's a really tough one to measure in an interview. It's hard to measure. , and so I like to ask questions that help me see how a person.
[00:17:56] Yeah. Problem solves and things. So I'll, I'll ask, walk me through your process of developing a social media strategy. And one I'm looking for, do you have a process? Have you thought, have you done this before? Yeah. But also like, is it systematic? Is it organized? Are you an organized thinker? Are you thinking critically about things like, well, I'm going to pull in key stakeholders.
[00:18:20] I'm going to ask about what our goals are. , if somebody jumps straight to the tactics, then I know, Their, their strategic thinking might not be there yet. , I also really love giving scenario questions. So I hate interview assignments because I have a full time job. I don't want to do additional work just for fun.
[00:18:40] , and I have time and time again, done interview assignments and then, you know, Not made it through to the role and then find out, you know, they, they hired their friend. , and so I, I have started doing this thing where I will send the candidates a scenario question before and I'll say, here's the scenario.
[00:19:00] Here's what I want you to think about. I don't want you to put together this plan, but I am going to ask you to share what your approach would be in developing a plan to address this problem or this event, et cetera. And so. So that has been such a great opportunity for me to see how somebody thinks when they're not put on the spot.
[00:19:20] Cause not everybody's a good thinker right on the spot. Some people like to think about things and mull them over. And I do too. Like I like to spend some time thinking before I share my thoughts. And so that has been really useful in, in figuring out if someone can think critically both on the spot when I'm asking those questions, but also when I give them some time to think ahead.
[00:19:42] I also need people who have emotional intelligence and can manage conflict, because conflict happens in the workplace, especially the higher up you go. And so, I don't want to say, how do you manage conflict? Because everybody's going to say, well, I talk to people about it, and we, we solve the problem together.
[00:20:00] Because it's a lot harder than that. And so I like to ask, tell me about a time when you had to have a difficult conversation or tell me about a time you had to give one of your staff members some really tough feedback and tell them that they missed the mark. How do you solve that problem? Sometimes I might ask about how they've managed up in terms of those problems or managing down, but it gives you a lot of insight in how someone actually solves a problem.
[00:20:26] And if they have experience doing that, because some people can't think of how or can't think of specific situations. And so they will just tell you the general of how. And that also indicates to me that maybe that person wasn't a good listener. Like I asked a specific question and you answered a different one.
[00:20:42] , so that's something I really look at. And then I also love to see how gritty people are. So if you ask them, tell me about a time that you failed at something. What did you learn from that? That is really insightful. It shows, can they take risks or do they have self awareness to know that they missed the mark?
[00:21:02] And do they get back up? And I think those are all things that I'm looking for, because probably 85 percent of the applicants can do the job and not all of them can do the job that I need them to do within my organization. So that's just some insight into my brain, especially coming off of having 209 applications and four days for a role on my team, where I had to narrow that down to just 10 people to interview.
[00:21:34] Jolie Downs: This was fantastic. And anyone who is currently interviewing should go back and listen to it again, because you hit so many marks of the prep that I'll give. I mean, I'll give people preps and all of the things that you're listing. There are things that, that I'll talk to people about in a prep, right. But,
[00:21:51] most people don't get that from a recruiter and understanding what the hiring manager is looking for is vital to to being able to Land the job and all of those all of those things the right mindset coming doing the research being Enthusiastic knowing what you want. All of these things are amazing So I'm just gonna say go back and listen to it again if you're interviewing because that was chock full of good stuff So, well, so before you go, I want to ask you one final question.
[00:22:22] I'm going to throw you a little something different. You mentioned superpower there. And I'm curious, can you tell me what is your personal superpower?
[00:22:29] Rachel Esterline Perkins: Yeah. So I'm really tenacious. I do not give up. And I have Had other people tell me that when someone tries to tell me I can't do something, that just makes me more determined.
[00:22:41] So, I have a professor at CMU, Jim Wojcik, who I've known since 2008. I go back to his classes every semester to speak. I have a presentation called, Welcome to the Real World. Sorry, there isn't a syllabus where I talk about what it's like to work in the real world. And that's something that he's told me.
[00:22:59] He's like, I've watched people tell you that you can't do something and you just get way more determined. Some people have said, you know, on the other side that maybe it's, I'm aggressive, , but, or bossy that, you know, as a, as a woman, you get told that sometimes. Yeah. But I, I would call it tenacity. I, yeah.
[00:23:18] And someone who I will get something done no matter what in my last role. I was leading the launch of our new website. We launched the website redesign process in May. And I told them that we would have the website launched by October. And my boss said, I don't think you're going to be able to make that happen.
[00:23:36] I was like, okay. And, , at the end, he was like, I didn't think that you were going to be able to make this happen, but you did. And it's like, it was a lot of hard work. , but I. Sat a deadline and I was going to make that deadline no matter what. And so, , that's just my secret superpower is, , it doesn't matter if I don't have the skill or the experience or the time or the energy, I will make things happen.
[00:24:02] Jolie Downs: Fantastic. You can't make anything happen without tenacious tenacity. So yeah, so it's a great superpower to have. And , you know, that's what I love about the question because you know what, these personal superpowers, these are things we can also learn, even if we don't have them already. And you can learn to be more tenacious.
[00:24:18] You can learn to keep going like that. So thank you for sharing. I love it all. And Rachel, this has been fantastic. , you've just had so many great insights. Thank you for joining us on the Career Wanderlust podcast.